RF Generation Message Board

Even though the site is more focused on retail/boxed games, there's something that I'm stumped on regarding downloadable games on multiple systems.

It is getting problematic on the PSN section of the site where games are on PS3, PSP and PS Vita. A game might be on all 3, a game might be PS3 and PS Vita as a cross buy (e.g. Pinball Arcade, Alien Breed, Retro City Rampage) so you get both versions no matter what, a game that is PS3/PSP/PS Vita only and a game that is PSP/PS Vita compatible. There is also the get PS3 disc/download and get the free downloadable Vita version method (e.g. PlayStation All-Stars, Sly Cooper), in Sly's case the Vita version has 5 different versions depending on languages like the old days/retail. It doesn't help that many games have the same name as previous games (e.g. Ridge Racer, Everybody's Golf, Gran Turismo to name a few) and causes confusion like Ridge Racer (PSP) works on both the PSP and PS Vita but Ridge Racer (PS Vita) only works on the Vita.

Luckily though for Sony, they do have a naming system (that have been adding in but a few that I couldn't due to have been removed from the service e.g. GTI Club unless people still have their email purchases from PSN from 2006 to November 2012) regarding PSN* but maybe a system variation option would be lovely e.g. some of the SNK Neo Geo games where there is a PSP/PS Vita version released at a later date and a PS3 version slightly earlier [I have been trying to add a variation regarding a couple but it says that the variation is already there on the system] and unlike the Ridge Racer example above, it is the same game just with a different code and different playing console.

I imagine that it will get worse once Nintendo's Virtual Console gets into full swing on the Wii U and currently everything is either in Virtual Console/WiiWare or eShop (3DS/Wii U). If Virtual Console gets seperated from WiiWare, then it would get confusing regarding Wii, Wii U, 3DS, same thing regarding the eShop for the latter two. It is much easier for Microsoft to have a section since at the moment, they only have 1 console but with the increase of Windows phones and Windows 8 using Xbox Live and the future console, it will end up having the same scenario.

So what would be the best option regarding this?

*Here are the codes out of curiousity (at least Europe wise, I think it is U for US and J for Japan but not sure):
PCSF (PS Vita 1st Party) [same as retail]
PCSB (PS Vita 3rd Party) [same as retail]
NPEA (PSN 1st Party)
NPEB (PSN 3rd Party)
NPEC (reserved for PS2 Classics - 1st party?)
NPED (PS2 Classics - 3rd party)
NPEE (PS1 Classics - 1st party)
NPEF (PS1 Classics - 1st party)
NPEG (reserved for PSP 1st party?)
NPEH (PSP 3rd Party - at least at later games, most seem to use the ULES retail code...)
NPEJ (PS3 - Blu-ray Digital Download) [some use the NPEB code though]
NPEZ (Minis)
BCES (PS3 1st party - very rare for a downloadable game, usually it is for blu-ray discs and DLC but Uncharted 3: Game of the Year Edition uses this code)

i'm not sure about all the different psn subsets you mentioned like the minis and classic titles, but my suggestion to staff for the problem of the same store on different consoles (for psn at least) is to just use the same psn name for each with the console name in brackets.

for example:
Sony Playstation Network (PS3)
Sony Playstation Network (PSP)
Sony Playstation Network (PSVita)
Sony Playstation Network (multiple consoles)

It's interesting you bring this up:
First - where are you getting the Product Codes? Do those appear on the PlayStation Network page?
Second - Do you think we should split up the PSN section into the separate sections, or do you think we should just use the Variation Title/Title Name to separate them?

Given that they are all in the same marketplace and are hardly differentiated to consumers(or so it seems) as it is shouldn't a variation title that states which system(s) that dload works for suffice?

The problem with Variation Titles is that it's meant to separate titles that are meant to be the exact same. In this case, they're titles for different console support, which means they should likely have the Title Name edited. ModNation Racers (PS Vita) and ModNation Racers (PS3) aren't the same game by far.

Looking at your Modnation Racers example.
The PSP game page has a download that says works for PSP and Vita.

The Vita page says nothing about the dload being backwards compatible(probably because a Vita owner doesn't care what would work on old technology?)

The PS3 page is only for the PS3 version.

Technically since PSN is a "console" in the database these multi system releases are variants.

Just one more reason to move Digital Distribution into its own searchable/trackable database instead of trying to force it to work with standard console releases?

That fixes the delineation how?

Or since it is a downloaded game you really dont own it so why bother tracking it :)

/thread!

I own the license, don't I? ...yeah, forgot that can be taken away by 1st party too.

i have to point out that we have xbox live arcade, games on demand, and indie games. why is xbox special, especially when those are all used for the same physical console?

...it's not. The old folks can't understand the concept of owning something you can't hold.

Xbox has nothing to do with it. Downloaded games are just long term rentals nothing more. So you guys will have to come up with somethingbetterthen "old guy". I have lots of XBLA games but I don't feel they are worth tracking is all.

It is special because we were able to find ways to track them since the market places are separate.

If you want PSN or Nintendo Shop to be special figure out a way to segment the shops that everyone will understand. 360 just happens to have all their marketplaces already separated in a somewhat sensible fashion.

But like you said they are all for the same PHYSICAL CONSOLE which is another reason why i think digital games should be split into a digital DB. A distribution platform is not the same thing as a console.

Digital people would still be able to track digital releases (unfortunately myself included) and not have to worry about it mucking up the physical release side of the DB.

Yeah, I had a hunch that this would cause some problems with the database and opinions whether DL games have any ownership at all (people do play on Steam games quite a lot these days and most recent PC games on discs use Steam anyway). If it causes problems, then a seperate DB might have to be made but that would mean 4162+ games would have to be moved.


I'm getting the product codes from the Sony Entertainment Network site, they list them in the url of the game page (the end of the url seems to be the filename, many of them are zeroes or just say base). E.g. https://store.sonyentertainmentnetwork.com/#!/en-gb/games/dead-or-alive-5/cid=EP4108-NPEB01129_00-DOA5HDDBOOT01000 https://store.sonyentertainmentnetwork.com/#!/en-gb/games/metal-gear-solid-hd-collection-ps-vita/cid=EP0101-PCSB00118_00-MGSHDVITA0000000 (might not work since SEN detects your region.)

As for the second question, I don't really know what's best.

It will be interesting to me to watch how this plays out. With the new consoles coming out some of these distribution systems may be called the same thing, but there will be more platform fragmentation. I don't have any good suggestions, but perhaps a digital database would be best.

...I recognize those codes quite well. I would really hope I do. That would be the same exact name of the file you're downloading from the service as well.

EP4108-NPEB01129_00-DOA5HDDBOOT01000

EP4108 = Publisher Code
NPEB01129 = Title Id
NPEB01129_00 = Service Id
DOA5HDDBOOT01000 = Package Name (Content)

(emphasis mine)


Fully support this idea. A "digital" collection really has nothing to do with a physical collection. Most people wanting to compare their physical collection will want to compare it with other physical collections, not with digital games on a myriad of different distribution platforms.

I say split the DB in two. Make searching the physical and digital DB seperate, too. With all the regional variants, many searches look cluttered enough as it is. In the near future, games will be available on a dozen digital platforms and I'd still like to be able to do a quick search for, say, "Assassin's Creed III" and not have it return 75 results.

Force digital games to be in a seperate folder in the Collection Tools, and give the option to see people's physical and digital collection seperately (default to physical).

i'd love a digital database too.

...and, to be honest, that would completely break the site as-is and make it even more unwieldy to develop for. Hardware is half-broken due to taking that approach and not following through with it from the previous administration. We need to combine all of the databases and separate them by type and then build the page based on that type, not the hard-coded shenanigans we currently have. Did you know we already have 6+ php pages that are almost exact duplicates of each other for submissions, just with small tweaks based on whether or not you're staff, whether or not you're reviewing it, and whether it's software vs. hardware?

The solution is not a separate database. The solution is to create a shared database that properly extends all of the types of items we plan on tracking, eventually including Arcade Boards and Strategy Guides.

i wasn't thinking just copy paste the entire database code with tweaks for each one, i had in mind something more like what you said with shared code between the databases that has room for expansion into each section needed.

as nice as it is to have the site donor funded, ad-free and volunteer run, it sounds like it could really use someone full time to rework it from the ground up. the staff currently do a great job but there's only so much you can do when you all have other jobs and this is a hobby of sorts.

After reading Shadow's last post, it makes me wonder if we should even be doing digital at all. There's nothing that says that this site has to have them, and to be honest I'd really rather see resources used for other things.

I'm glad I don't have to make these decision, but you can't please everyone.

It's definitely a tough call.  On one hand, thinking about my steam games, they are part of my collection, and I like the idea of having them documented and shown off as part of my complete library of games that I own.  On the other hand, if I really want to see what games I own digitally, I can just log into steam and look.  A lot if the benefits that the RFGen tools offer for collectors are kind of N/A in the digital world.  I'll never be out hunting for digital games and need to check if I already downloaded it.  I'll never need to check and see if a XBLA game has a variant on steam.  I don't need to document that I have a game, but not the digital manual or cyber-case.  Etc. etc.  Maybe a compromise between the two worlds would be a fourth area to add a value to when adding a game to your collection...like game, box, manual, and digital.  Just thinking out loud...

Truer words have never been spoken.

Questions for the people that want to track downloaded stuff. Do you want to track and ROMS you might have for emulation? If not why? What's the difference?

well it is the "modern" gaming database as well as classic, and digital is modern gaming even if it's not the only option yet. i thought the idea was to track games that have been made (and can be owned somehow), not just physical games.

when i say i'd love to have a digital database though, i do want it for the ability to track my entire gaming collection in one place, but i really just want it separated from the physical part. that way it's easy to say what exactly is on my shelves, and what's on my hard drives. i totally understand it not being a priority though and it would probably be a huge job to separate. it does the job fine the way it is now it's just not ideal.

[img width=240 height=184]http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTV_H8_ZioUUxk5Xy6CphyhGyJotfZuE002CblvnEE-szEhQdGuAA[/img]
Here is where a gigantic post filled with complaints, ideas and probably some rather offensive things was going to be.
Instead i will just say...

[img width=240 height=184]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTxq8_tMjCOWo0nxLm2bm4At5raORjk_lmG_hHWXx60vnYmSRU[/img]
I don't care anymore. I'll still make my suggestions and harp on things i feel should be changed.
Shadow claims the DB is full of completely asinine variants because a large part of our userbase was begging for more and more of them to be added. Instead of wasting weeks of time looking for tiny TMs and Rs and Cs put that time into something that will benefit the entire community. If a user gives a damn and wants to track a variant they will notice it and submit it. If they don't care about variants they won't notice it. Everyone stays happy.

[img width=240 height=184]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS8GfxnWx0fFPaXlVzLUhGRwSqjgQT4LWCh-0Dv3N4SqnJFKBjOPQ[/img]
On the other hand everytime i suggest having a unique trackable DB for hardware/software/digital i see support from everyone except the programers who complain about how fucked up the site is and how outdated the code is.
Well here you go. A chance to make everything new instead of putting band-aids on everything and bitching.

[img width=240 height=184]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTpcLXcLtg4xgSsxtYVbSuCUg_CIL2eazqKOi-AFGLtQ5YuqGhR[/img]

FIN

Anthony, completely understand...that's how I ended my day yesterday after the constant talks of how things could be improved and how they should be done. I'm exhausted from just dealing with properly documenting European variants, let alone the rest of the database issues. Grue's been putting in quite a bit of polish work on the site though, which is nice, but it doesn't help us tackle the larger issues just yet.

If you want this to go away, contribute to the staff thread about page redesign so that we can start moving forward - we have a working sandbox now where we can start ripping things out and try new things! Combining the hardware php files with the software php files would likely take a small amount of time and would immensely help with this effort, even if we do just start with separating the databases for everything. We can merge the databases at a later point, but the point being right now is that hardware isn't even properly supported and we should fix the current state of the site before taking on another large project.

I'm just now getting back under 60 hours/week for work, and you've seen how little I'm actually on my Xbox 360 besides Netflix for the past year. Give me some time to catch back up on house work, and I'll throw in my lot to getting this resolved in the coming month. The important part in all of this is to discuss and design the work beforehand, which will reduce the amount of implementation time immensely. Get a design together, and Grue and I can likely tackle it within the span of a week.

Why are you searching for them? Like Anthony said let European people submit them. If they want it track it will be added. Work on bigger issue things. I remember when we only added games we owned not tracked stuff down to add it.

Agreed. Shadow shouldn't be wasting his time on minutiae (unless he really wants to). We've got good members doing European variant submissions. There's no rush to get the Euro DB done, anyway. Slowly does it.

I do like the idea you guys are working with the sandbox to start getting things into shape.

Wow, you guys think I spend hours upon hours adding these variants? I'm just going far enough out of my way to sort out variants in the submission queue to verify that what we're getting is what's being submitted. Half an hour of time doing research for the queue isn't something I can apply to code refactors.

YOu talk about doing them all the time.