RF Generation Message Board

[img width=594 height=334]http://www.pcgamesn.com/sites/default/files/SteamReveal.png[/img]

A lot of people are trying to fill in the gaps that Gabe Newell left in his announcement on Friday.  General speculation is that the big announcement on Monday will be Steam Box related, which certainly seems feasible if you take into account the continued further kudos he gives Linux as a Steam platform (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTQ2MzI) as well as a teaser page directly on Steam. (http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/)

What does this mean?  Is this nothing more than an announcement for further Linux support or is it something more?  Time will tell, or course, but that certainly isn't quelling speculation.  On one hand we could have something as simple as a Valve-branded version of Linux, but on the other hand there could be an announcement of a new gaming platform, which would further stymie the "Steam is not a platform" detractors as well as our own Anti-Digital League.

What do you think it will be?  Keep in mind that this is only the first of a slew of announcements from Valve (which is you scroll down on the Steam link above, you will see there is more too it).

Bit strange that both the cat and the controller look like...  a sandwich, hmm?





Source: Escapist Magazine: "http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/128015-Valve-Teases-Steam-Box-With-Countdown-Timer"

maybe a steam operating system based on linux, that could be interesting

HALF LIFE THREE TO LAUNCH EXCLUSIVE WITH STEAM BOX

If the Steam Box is real I might actually consider it. The service has been interesting me a lot lately, but I'm not 100% sure about going the PC gaming route. So if a Steam console is in the future I will be open to the possibility.

I woke up all like "gotta check steam for news" then remembered all them fellers are out in California and probably still snoozing.

Still nothing!

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/09/23/valve-announces-steamos/

i called it!

Yes you did!  Very interested in Steam OS and very curious as to what they mean by "living room machines". 

One of my hesitations with Steam in the living room is that I don't want my huge, powerful PC in the living room.  If they have really found a way to reduce latency in streaming games from your PC to your TV via wired network in a Linux environment, I will be one happy camper.

Hmm very interesting if very vague. Will have to wait to see what this actually is.

I got a new PC Labor Day weekend, and ever since have been spending A LOT of time on Steam. A lot.

Well, now.  The new announcement is... an operating system? (http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/)  Apparently SteamOS is...  something.  With a semi-vague grouping of words, Valve doesn't answer as many questions as they ask.  The facts: In the near future there will be an operating system called SteamOS which is further targeting your living room for the future of PC gaming, Steam appears to be Linux derived, and it will be free. 

Now, since bil has already pointed out the streaming feature, I would like to focus on a quote directly from the webpage, with special emphasis should be on the final sentence:

     "In SteamOS, we have achieved significant performance increases in graphics processing, and we’re now targeting audio performance and reductions in input latency at the operating system level. Game developers are already taking advantage of these gains as they target SteamOS for their new releases."

Regardless of what happens next, SteamOS will be a valid platform in the future and stand as a competitor.  Games will be created with it in mind and if Valve has done the work they claim, these games will run better on it than a non-gaming OS (Windows, Mac, Linux). 

http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/

What's next?  According to the timer we have less than 48 hours before we find out, and now that the first one is revealed we can begin to see some sort of outline that Valve is drawing for us.  Not clear, but visible.  Look at the icon designs for each announcement.  What could it mean?


[img width=700 height=222]http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/5425/9g4d.jpg[/img]

There are still two more announcements before I can pass judgement. In the meantime, my prediction/hope is SteamOS is the foundation of a console (I kinda want Steam Box to be real). We still have to figure out the meaning of the picture of the cat and the controller.

"Living room machines" is very vague.


According to various articles I've read latency is the big thing they're working on resolving.

Steam Machines announcement:

http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamMachines/

"A powerful new category of living-room hardware is on the horizon.
Join the hardware beta now.
Choose the model right for you in 2014."

Yup.  I'm beta eligible.  Super slim chance with only 300 units going out, but I can hope.

So Valve has chosen the 3DO model?  I have to admit, I was really hoping for some soft of single solution that would help stabilize PC gaming, but whatever.

Hm.  Well, I need another eight friends to become beta eligible, so if wants to help a brother out...

Based on the weird icons they were using (SteamOS-circle inside a box) I think pretty much everyone was guessing some king of hardware reveal.  Now the last symbol (two SteamOS-circles with a plus sign in the middle) really has me wondering.  Some kind of solution like Onlive?

Awww, I don't have a gamepad.

I understand your desire for stability but a single hardware model for all pc gamers simply wouldn't work.  If they released a simple $99 model for everyone, it would only play the most basic games.  If they release a $300 model, it's too expensive for the people who just wanted basic and not powerful enough for the hardcore graphics/FPS crowd.  Forcing an $800 box on everyone would eliminate most of the market and just appeal to hardware enthusiasts, early adopters and the "money is no object crowd".  Having options at various price points allows anyone to get on board.  Also, making the hardware upgradeable means that you aren't stuck with an underpowered box once you decide that you want to move up to the next level.

The 3DO model wasn't a bad idea, it was

expensive with no lower cost alternatives
not upgradeable
had a proprietary game library
closed OS

Steam Machines will have

hardware options across various price points
allow users to swap hardware if they want more power
work with an existing library of thousands of games
have an open and freely distributed OS

That being said, most people who know me know that I am a big fan of Steam so there is some bias here.  It's human nature to look for things that we like when we are a fan of something and to look for reasons we don't like when we already aren't a fan.

I don't think that Steam machines will be significant competition to console gaming for that reason.  People who are already console gamers will not leave consoles for Steam Machines.  People who are already on the Steam boat (heh) are the people who are being targeted as the primary customer.  All Valve is trying to do here is to allow their existing customers to move into the living room with various hardware and software options.  If Steam Machines will ever have an impact on the console gaming market, it will be at least a few years down the road.

A Wired 360 controller will do.  I use a wireless 360 controller, you just need one of these http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Wireless-Gaming-Receiver-Windows/dp/B000HZFCT2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380133727&sr=8-1&keywords=360+receiver

Hm.  The 3DO example was a bad one, though not for the reasons you mentioned, bil.  3DO was a great idea from the POV of Trip Hawkins, but bad for the consumer.  It failed because of the price, timing, and the software developers, not because of customer confusion.  I don't see any of these things affecting the Steam Box.

You have to understand, bil, that I'm coming at this more as a fan of PC gaming rather than a Steam apologist.  However, I really am in love with the idea of SteamOS and the possibility that it will have better hardware support within a Linux environment (the holy grail of Linux gaming).  Never having to keep a Windows hard drive in my computer just in case I get a uber fussy game?  Yikes, what a possibility.

Back on track: I think a standardization of the hardware of the PC gaming market (or at least the choice of one) would be go quite far.  It wouldn't standardize it, as both you and I know PC gaming is a market about choice, not pigeon-holes, but it could shake things up.  Will it ever impact console gaming?  I don't know or care, but it could cause some developers to take a closer look that might have never considered the platform viable.  And who doesn't want more games?

I'm starting to wonder if the multiple models won't be exclusively about gaming.  Since part of SteamOS is about streaming, maybe the low end machines will be just for playing games from your main box in the basement or man cave on the television.  Maybe it will also only play games in a certain category.  Who knows?  Fun to speculate but the week isn't over yet, right?

A digital only console? Am I the only one who is thinking this is a bad idea? Just because it worked on PC, doesn't necessarily mean it will work in the console market.

Digital only is so totally the future it's not even funny. There's already absolutely no reason for companies to be spending money on shipping physical games all over the world when 99% of their market has access to high speed internet.

Steam has saved PC gaming by offering amazing deals on games that I had come to believe were exceedingly overpriced. Steam pulled me back from being a no holds barred pirate to being an almost legitimate gamer. If they could do this to the console market it would be a huge benefit for everyone!

I've never used Linux, but moving PC gaming away from the closed Microsoft-controlled platform of Windows to a free, open source one sounds like only a good thing for gaming.  And if that's ever going to happen, this seems like just the thing to do it!

Valve's really a trailblazer.  And they've done plenty to win my trust, so I'm inclined to believe the stuff like the game-focused optimizations at the OS level.

And you can hack it just like any other PC - they've got a nice focus on freedom.  Should be an easy way to play any computer games on your TV, not just Steam stuff.  Eagerly awaiting more details!!!

In the US maybe, but the rest of the world is not on par for internet speeds. A streaming console outside most of NA would be a nightmare right now. While the future might heading to digital, there will still be a choice between physical and digital. According to all those doomsayers, wasn't CD's supposed to die a long time ago? And yet it hasn't. And let's not forget why PC is dominated by digital. Pirating almost collapsed PC gaming, while the move to digital has helped curb piracy to a degree. There is still physical alternatives available to those who don't like to download.

I could be wrong, but I think Leon might have been talking about the market Steam already has.  Plus, I wouldn't really think about Steam Box as a console, but rather a slightly different kind of PC that you can completely control with a controller (maybe?).

If the box ends up being a micro-PC would owners be able to swap in and out certain components like we already can with regular PCs?

Just an aside: I spoke to friends about this news and about the possibility of a living room console and they didn't quite understand why Valve is making this move. They all said, "I already have a PC powerful enough to play all my games, plus I can just connect it to my TV." I gave a few counter-arguments like putting a PC beside a TV is an eyesore and that perhaps some people won't want to leave their living rooms to play their Steam games (perhaps because they want to play with friends or family).

What are your thoughts, guys?

EDIT

Looks like this debate is already a hot topic: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2013/09/25/who-needs-a-steam-box.aspx

They're going after the console market, that's why. This isn't marketed at PC gamers because STEAM ALREADY HAS THAT MARKET IN ITS POCKET. Now they're expanding, and if they can offer an affordable living room system that offers streaming games at steam sale prices they could theoretically take a huge slice of the gaming pie away from the "big three."

I sincerely doubt it will affect the big three for a very long time. With Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft, you buy the console and that's it...no upgrades, no nothing. Whereas the Steam Box seems to be a living room PC that will need upgrades, and will have numerous models to pick from. Most console gamers aren't even going to be aware of this thing as it hits the shelf as they rush to pick up a Wii U/PS4/One next holiday. Just because Steam saved PC gaming, doesn't mean that it will revolutionize console gaming. I believe that Steam Box will have a very niche audience, mostly consisting of people that had Steam accounts in the first place. But hell, that's just my opinion. I guess that we will have to wait until Christmas '14 to watch the battle unfold.

My guess is that the Steam console is for people who can't afford gaming PCs or don't want to build one. Sure you can get a pretty good PC for around $700 but many people say "why do that when you can get a PS4 or XB One that's ready to go out of the box for roughly half that price?"

So if Valve comes out with a powerful enough box that is less than a full-fledged PC I might consider one.

I think once it hits this will resonate more with PC gamers.  Personally speaking my tower isn't quite an eyesore, but it isn't quite, and thanks to the friggin' Quadro card I have to use it really heats up a room, so this could be a great solution.  Me, I don't want to lug that tank from floor to floor depending on who is using the television, and alternately sometimes I don't want to trudge my butt down to the man cave and play there.

Initially when this whole thing started I thought that maybe Valve was out to give the market a light tap on the nuts, just to size everyone up and let them know they are serious.  But the more I think about it, the more I start to think this may be the beginning of a takeover.  It won't be fast.  Like Leon said, they already pretty much own the PC gaming market, so they don't need to aggressively come in and slap their thang down, but rather do that they've been doing (and what they are know for): being patient.  They've already announced a operating system that may eventually replace Windows as the PC gamers OS of choice, and they also announced a set-top box that does everything: Games, movies, and music, all from one source hooked up to your television.  Kind of sounds like that modern consoles have done, right?  So that does Valve offer that the console competition doesn't?  Regular and often insane sales on software.  Just today I signed onto Steam to ready my laptop for work tomorrow (I likes to play me some games on lunch, if I can) and noticed Dead Island: Riptide is free until Monday morning (PST).  Not something I will be playing, but there are plenty of people who will be downloading this just to play it through the weekend.

With all that said, I still think (like many of you do) that any hardware Valve puts out in the near future will not compete with the next generation of consoles.  What it will do (assuming any soft of success in sales) will possibly move us to that all digital future that much quicker.

So...  Today's announcement: Half Life 3, only on SteamOS and Steam?  Anyone?

The Steam Controller is here:

http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamController/

Definitely not what I was expecting.  I expect that the knee jerk reaction will be mostly negative.  It's very hard for me to imagine playing a game without analog sticks or face buttons but I'll try to reserve judgement until I give one a try.

... 
Personally I don't even know how to react to it.  My initial reaction is to recoil a bit.  I am not a fan of touch-style controls at all, mostly because you just don't get that tactile feedback, so things tend to get a bit sloppy. You loose a ton of precision.  Also the modern trend is for the price of controllers is to increase upon each generation, and this looks far more advanced than what we are seeing on the 360 and the PS3.  $60USD +?  Who knows.

That being said, I am curious to see more.  How do the "trackpads" work?  How do they feel on the hands, and is the controller large or small?  Regardless, since Steam OS seems to be so open and friendly, I don't see why it wouldn't include a base group of drivers to handle generic USB controllers.

Like the rest of their announcements, there is far too little information given to do anything with except speculate.  I look forward to learning more in the near future.

I am pretty much in the same boat.  I imagine that I would stick with my 360 or One controller for most games and maybe give the Steam controller a try on something like an RTS or Turn Based Strategy game like Civ V that typically requires a mouse to play.

My knee jerk reaction was "Huh?! :stupid:" and "It looks like an owl!"

I guess gaming on the Steam Box will be a hoot.

My Zagnorch-ified avatar actually looks a lot like me initial reaction.

Interesting controller.

http://www.gamersonlinux.com/forum/threads/nvidia-to-publish-open-gpu-documentation-has-hell-frozen-over.326/

Article Title:  "Nvidia to publish Open GPU documentation. Has hell frozen over?"

This technically isn't Steam Box news, but considering that one of the main points of SteamOS' architecture has to be interaction with the GPU, I though it appropriate.

For some reason, Nvidia has decided to allow for open-source drivers for their GPUs, which opens a ton of previously closed doors with Linux and Nvidia graphical solutions.  To most of the Linux community this means the basic "Nouveau" driver will be able to be a viable alternative to the proprietary ones.

Finally, this brings us around to Steam.  With an open source alternative to (likely) having to pay to get access to the source from Nvidia, Valve won't have to pass the buck onto SteamOS and Steam users, which means SteamOS and Steam Box users will have immediate access to the full capability of their GPU.

One more point: What about AMD?  While I imagine there will be AMD/ATI alternatives for SteamOS, the fact that custom Nvidia drivers will be readily available suggests that they will be the GPU of choice for Steam Box hardware (much like the next generation of consoles).  I thought I heard that AMD were getting out of the consumer GPU arena, I cannot find any proof.  It does make one wonder, however.

The issue I'm seeing with the whole thing is, what would be the benefit over just building a gaming PC and installing Steam? As it is now it's a PC with a specialized OS(even more so when there's to be multiple versions, getting rid of the major "if it's for it, it works" benefit of consoles.

I am kind of excited companies are taking more risks now though, it was kinda boring only having the major three consoles on the market.   

It provides the utility of a living room entertainment system with the power and custom-ability of a pc. The all-in-all streaming entertain-o-box is where the industry is going to end up and that's what this is. It's pretty perfect if they pull it off right.

But people who want to upgrade and all that are PC gamers. For everyone else there is consoles. Most people don't care about upgrading anything to play a game. Just that the on button works

This IS steam delivering a ready to go console to your door. There's no reason it shouldn't appeal to console gamers if marketed correctly. Upgrading it is an option, it doesn't mean everyone will need to do it. If they outfit them right they shouldn't need upgrading for 4-5 years anyhow.

Taking into account what we know, the new consoles are PCs, they are just not upgradable.  Now let us consider for a moment that Valve and its hardware partners will be marketing the Steam Box as a console (something that, for this moment, is speculation).  You spend some money on it, set it up, and turn it on.  You sign up for a Steam account and start downloading games.  Then you play them.  Acknowledging the difference in media, how is this different than a modern console?  Just because you can upgrade does it man you have to?  We know that the PS3's hard drive can be upgraded, but how many have actually done so?

While I agree with that Leon is saying, I really think that initially this will be marketed toward PC gamers looking for an upgrade, which will likely coincide with the release of the next-gen GeForce videocards next year.  But it will only be a matter of time before Valve makes their move into console territory.  The Big Three would do well to check their ground over the next five years.

That's what I've been saying, you remove the one major advantage of consoles(if it's for it, it works) and you come to a point where you might as well get a gaming PC.

How is the inability to upgrade a console an advantage? If I had the option between buying a non-upgrade-able XBone with overpriced games and a paying online service versus an upgradeable Steambox with steamstore prices I'll take the Steambox. If Steam can market their product as such and get the hype ball rolling there's no reason in the world people should shy from it just because it offers the option to upgrade.

I would say if they're priced reasonably and offer impressive enough specs they'll garner business from the PC gaming crowd, I'm certainly interested, but as I've said, their real aim should be at ripping out the soft underbellies of the big three from the Cawadoody crowds.

I didn't say it was, I said the fact games are optimized for them so you don't have to is. I know that when I buy a Xbox360 game, it's going to work in any Xbox360 I put it in.

Also a very very large portion of console gamers are not tech savvy. Plus another large amount of console gamers are just a family who owns one because the kids.

Then way not just buy a conventional console?

To save me time on researching this, is it just a mini-PC with Steam's own flavour of Linux running everything in Wine? Or is it an actual OS that games will all have to be ported to from scratch?

At any rate, it'll probably live or die with how fluent it is. If you can easily just download and play games without a care in the world like an actual console it may go far, if it has enough software backers. If you have to worry about installing, configuring, etc, etc... why bring the PC headaches into the living room?

I haven't commented on here yet but I will make a few quick analyses on how I think Valve can be successful.

1. Push the same sales that PC already gets.

It will be completely impossible for the other three to have any truthful comeback if Valve pushes 50-75% off sales just a couple months after a popular game releases.

2. Download architecture can appeal to developing markets.

One thing fantastic about the PC client is the ability to pause downloads. It also pauses automatically when the connection is disrupted or a game is started. This can appeal greatly to markets where internet connections are shitty at best.

3. Major indie support.

Like it or not the indie market is becoming a bigger reason for people to support systems. Lately Valve has been courting a lot of up and coming studios and giving them an avenue to market their upcoming projects.

That said the controller looks like crap. Mouse + keyboard support will be needed.

To sum it up, a Steam Box will be a computer with SteamOS that will play Steam games out of the box (plug in, download, and play) from a television.  SteamOS is a heavily customized version of Linux, but will play games in native Linux on Steam, something that is already happening right now (there are over 300 Linux native games on Steam now).  Steam games are just download and play.  These days pretty much every game shows you how to play it.  No headache, bro.

I think the real question here will be how Valve will manage to get the rest of the games, or at the very least the most popular games running on SteamOS.  Should be interesting.

Provided they don't take the easy way out and use Wine, this could well be the best thing to happen to Linux if it sees a huge influx of titles ported to it and possibly eventually even released for it along side their PC counterparts. Wine would be cost effective, but as it is emulation, the performance and visuals of games would suffer if they took this path.

Anywho, good luck to 'em. While I'm not a Steam fan, any competition is good, something like this trying to steal away from both, the home console market and PC sales will surly shake things up a bit if done well.

Exactly.

That controller looks super intriguing... maybe the biggest change since the Wiimote!  Certainly is unique.

Lots of people are ready to write it off since today's trackpads aren't exactly gamer friendly, but this sounds totally different.  Weighted electro-magnets, super precise haptic feedback... sounds fancy.  And I'll bet it's pretty good, since they've likely been designing for months, going through dozens and dozens of iterations no doubt, trying to find something that could rival specifically mouse + keyboard.  Nothing points to this being an afterthought.

Dev feedback is quite positive! [1 (http://gamasutra.com/view/news/201195/Select_game_developers_used_the_Steam_Controller_Heres_what_they_said.php)], [2 (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/TommyRefenes/20130928/201219/My_time_with_the_Steam_Controller.php)]

Yeah!  It doesn't sound like they're using Wine, just native Linux games and streaming from another Mac/Windows machine in your house.  Will be interesting to see how many more titles support Linux in the future.

It's nice to see that it isn't just a touchpad, but rather you actually have to press on it.  The little circles will also help you remember where your fingers are on it, I guess.  Actually a good chunk of the US PC Gamer Podcast is about Valve's announcements this week.  The called it, The GabeCube.  It is an interesting listen. (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/09/27/pc-gamer-podcast-363-gabecube/)

I read those Gamasutra articles too, but I'm sold yet. I don't think I'll be able to wrap my head around the controller's set up. At one point in reading one of those articles I started questioning my interest in the future Steam consoles. If anything, I hope their box has USB ports so I can plug in a 360 controller receiver.

That's the idea, Fleach.  Since the OS is open, anybody can make a driver for it the same way they do for PCs now.  If you want to use a 360, One, or PS3 controller, anyone who can write a driver can add that support.