RF Generation Message Board

Could we possible begin archiving video game manuals (in pdf, cbr, or another file) on this website?  This question was recently posed in a blog comment section, so I thought maybe we could explore the possibilities.  Is is possible?  What would be the pros and cons?  Where do we stop?  Do we draw a line in the sand such as those on Video Game Mags (who archive nothing past 1999)?

i'm pretty sure that would infringe copyrights...scanning the cover is one thing but the entire booklet is something else. could be wrong though.

^
That has been the issue we have grappled with before.
At one time there were a few games that had full manual scans but i believe they were removed by someone.

Actually, I looked it up a while back. It's a grey area, but as long as we're not selling it or assuming that the manual itself is our property, it should fall under Fair Use.

Fair Use itself is a grey area though.

Perhaps we should do a trial run then?  Personally I think we should be fine, especially since we, 1) Don't traffic in ROMS or other blatantly illegal downloads that would incur the wrath of an IP holder, 2) Don't participate in activities that could incur the wrath of IP holders (Pokemon art contests, organize nationwide Smash Bros. competitions) and, 3) Can put language explicitly stating that the purposes are purely for archiving on the website.

I think storage and bandwidth could be more of a problem with this venture (though I admittedly don't know where we stand with those two issues).

Storage and bandwidth aren't a big issue right now.

Storage would be the biggest issue if this becomes a bigger rollout. We don't have as much space as on our previous host.

EDIT: Not saying we're having storage issues. But, of the two, storage would be the bigger one. I do also have a plan to get the podcast hosting on board here as well. Those files do take up a bit of space, but we have a lot at our disposal.

So there would have to be strict limits in place for manuals as far as resolution and dpi is concerned.  What other formats are there outside of pdf of the comic formats (cbr, cbz).  I know the comic formats tend to be the best looking but also tend to be the largest.  Anyone else have any input on this?

I was looking around and found this page on Replacement Docs. (http://www.replacementdocs.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?6)  I find it amusing that the protective of their IP are the PC people.  The 3000AD one is hilarious (if you know about D. Smart, that is).

If I get a chance tonight I will break out the ol' scanner and scan a few manuals, see if I can get some sort of idea of what we are dealing with in terms of size.  I don't think the growth would be rapid due to the slight more work that goes into scanning manuals.

As long as we aren't making money off it, it shouldn't be a problem.

Bomba, I tried to upload a PDF to the site that I hand-made from image scans I converted a while back, and the site won't support it due to size limitations (and format as well). It's something we'd have to add proper support for - not hard, just work.

Storage would have to be increased eventually, but we're not using what we have now.

I think PDF is probably the more universal, but we might be able to save some space by using CBR and recommending viewing software. I don't mind processing manuals if someone wants/needs help creating a cbr. cbz would be okay, but if we're going to compress, I'd rather use RAR over ZIP.

There's also cb7, cba, cbt. cb7 would give us 7Z compression, which I find to compress better than RAR in certain situations.

Just a matter of testing and working with what is available. I do think that this would be better suited for single game page entries so we don't have multiple copies of the same manual, just a different cart release (like a -A NES cart).

With our current host, the only way to increase storage would be to make the entire server more powerful. If we begin to hit that limit, it may be beneficial to begin looking at offloading some storage to Amazon S3 or some other method of storing this data.

FWIW, I think the manual I created was ~4MB in size with PDF. It's been a while though. That would take up room quick if we adopted it heavily, and I plan on also adopting other features that we should investigate getting Amazon cloud storage for or something.

not profiting from something doesn't mean it's not breaking copyright laws, that's a big misunderstanding from a lot of people online. i just researched some stuff and one government site recommended game publishers copyright their instruction manuals as literary works. working at a library, i know that you aren't allowed to photocopy more than a few pages of a book (it's probably a specific percent of the total content) even if it's only for personal use. we're not talking about personal use here but distributing entire manuals en masse to the public, and distribution is one thing definitely restricted by copyrights.

some quotes from US copyright law:


as i said, it's one thing to put up the front or back cover, but the content is another thing entirely. i'm not staff so it's up to them of course but personally i think it's a bad idea to just hope it's ok and go ahead instead of being proactive and avoid the problem altogether by not bothering. scanning an entire manual is a lot of work anyway.

I don't believe that these can be compared as the same thing, one is a literary work (a book, a novel) while the other is an instruction manual on how to use something such as your fridge, your dehumidifier, your washer.  In this case it's instructions on how to use a game.

from the US Copyright office website:
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

tech has a strong point, though I don't think that any of us here are under the illusion of this not being a violation of copyright.  If you are, then let me assure you that this sort of activity could be seen as actionable by an IP holder.  However, taken to the letter of the law, any of the scans (and even likely the pics) in the database of this website could be seen as violation of US copyright law, seeing as it was designed to keep any and all from doing anything with their derivative work that a IP holder might not like.  I have zero problem with this, seeing as it is their property.  However, there is the issue of "Fair Use" that Shadow pointed out, and marketability.  The primary reason I believe that many of these archive websites are able to do what they do is entirely down to whether or not the property is marketable to the IP holder.  You bet that when Nintendo decides to start selling their old game manuals or old copies of Nintendo Power, Replacement Docs and Retromags will be getting the first cease and desist emails.  Until then the big N knows where they are and whether or not they are attempting to make money from the copyright IP.

exactly, that's what i'm getting at, is it worth going to all the bother while running the risk that the site might get slapped with a cease & desist? like bomba said, even the existing scans could be a grey area. if they jumped on the site for a more obvious infraction like complete manual scans they might get upset about all the other scans that aren't such a big deal while they're at it. i can't imagine any company having issue with cover, disc, manual front scans, or others like that as long as that's all there is here, as they hardly display anything more than you could find just by browsing any store without buying. you can bet they would take issue with complete content of manual scans where everything is put out there though.

Again, excellent points, but I think you also touched on my point as well, and maybe something we should focus on exclusively (if we do go forward with this).  I also noticed that the end part of my post disappeared, which is to be expected when you have fingers as sausage-like as mine.

The rest of my original point was that these websites won't receive cease and desist letters.  Why?  Because they are fan sites almost exclusively interested in archiving their favorite pastime and nothing else.  Basically performing the same function as a private museum but with free admission.  This is why there are so many of these websites out there and one of the reasons they have survived for so long.  Another reason would be they are honest and front facing about it, placing caveats regarding their creed and intentions for all to view.  If a IP holder doesn't want their stuff displayed?  They offer to take it down immediately when contacted.  Something that we could emulate.

However, there is a question of out intentions with our database.  Is it for archiving or simply to serve as a tool for collecting (one of the primary functions of the website)?  Personally I've always seen it as an archive tool, though I imagine many do not.  However, we do have a strong retro focus, so maybe we can start with that.  When I think of manual scans I want to view I think about the retro stuff.  You know, day zero up until the PSX era.  Stuff that you cannot get in stores.  Stuff that companies don't even offer for free with the digital stuff they sell (unless you buy on the PC and on GoG), right?  Perhaps we should focus on the retro stuff only, at least for a while, and see where it leads us.

I think I've pretty much covered what I want to cover with this topic.  But I'd love to hear comments, thoughts, and feelings and such from everyone else.  I think if we would plan to do this we need a strong majority.

So I've messed around and have a few examples:

cb7 format (1.81MB) (http://www.mediafire.com/download/7ftk77jin3ts9te/2015-06-07.cb7)

cbz format (1.83MB) (http://www.mediafire.com/download/sd3wd4iszvhm594/2015-06-07.cbz)

pdf format (2.53MB) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/60v5xza6226m6r7/GL.pdf)

Keep in mind that these were scanned in at 150dpi and could look better.  300dpi would look  much better, but will pretty much double the file size.  I don't have a preference on a file format, but due to ease of creation (at least for me) and a smaller file size I prefer the CB formats.  Sure we loose a bit of compatibility by not going with pdf files, but anyone that has a zipping utility and the ability to view file extensions can create a cbz or cb7.

Atariage has scans of many Atari manuals, and they clearly haven't been sued for copyright infringement.

I know NintendoAge has a large library of scanned manuals that they host. Perhaps Dain would be worth talking to on this. Also, I thought that a while back we had some sort of agreement with him for sharing of images? Perhaps he'd be willing to work with us to fill in each other's gaps.

Also, some companies already have downloadable PDF versions of their manuals online now. Would we have to require our own custom scans, or would using these directly be acceptable?

We have a soft agreement with Dain for NintendoAge, and the Atari manuals are past their copyrights.

I thought copyrights were valid for 95 years past publication date in the US?

It's a lot more complicated than that. In any case, I think it's just a case of "no one cares" for it, and hoping it's considered Fair Use.