RF Generation Message Board

This place sounds like something out of a movie at the moment.



(http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/americas_new_orleans_lawlessness/img/1.jpg)

http://205.138.199.81/videos/7/101346_62c6c.wmv

I wonder where they go from here?

It truly is tragic how bad things are there.  I pray that the Marines that are heading there can help with the looting/rapes/assaults/etc.  
I feel that in this extreme of a circumstance if someone is shooting at rescuers/helicopters, the police and military should have shoot to kill orders.  Sorry, but how damn stupid can people be:  "Well, they're coming to help us and take the sick/infirm away.  Hmmm.  Let's shoot at them."
I just don't understand the logic in that...

In desperate times Chris , sometimes logic goes out the window. I know it shouldnt though. :(

I do agree that shoot to kill orders against people who are causing harm or hindering in the rescue effort might be a solution. I think it would only need to happen a few times before idiots learned that they cant get away with this sort of shit in this situation.

Yea it realy is aweful whats going on down there.

I think the shoot to kill orders are god against those who are trying to harm the rescuers but you kno that will get taken out of control.

The minute you give someone that kind of power somethign always happens in a way it shouldn't.

I disagree.  The military, especially the Marine Corps, are trained to follow orders - that means do exactly as you are told.  Marines in this situation would be there to ensure the safety of rescuers and suppress rioting/looting/crime.
This is such a shitty situation.  I love the response we are getting from the world - or lack thereof.  Where are the people who cried "the US must lead the efforts" when the tsunami hit?  Where is OUR help?

What I find amazing i s that people knew this was going to happen and nothing was done about the levies.

Very very sad.

Damn Scott... Slow down when typing buddy  :P



I also agree that trained military will not shoot to kill unless the situation calls for it. I do see that if it did come to that. (them shooting a civilian) there would probably be some bogus lawsuit  ::) If people or a person is causing harm or slowing progress of this rescue effort they need to be handled.

Exactly.

If someone is shot there chances are there will be a huge controversy about it and then people will hold a vigil for the person and criticize the Gov for using excessive force and blah blah blah.

But i think the military presence and warning of shoot to kill will be enough to straighten people up.

Yeah, something needs to be done about the lawsuits made against cops who only did their jobs.

P.S. Damn Jag. That babe in your profile pic is hot.

Are other countries send us aid or help ? I mean I only did a little searching on the web and could not find an article about this  ???

Headline from Le Parisien (http://www.leparisien.fr/reuters/topnews/article.htm?id=OFRTP-USA-OURAGAN-ESPAGNE-TP-20050902.html)

"WASHINGTON SOLLICITE UNE AIDE EN PÉTROLE"

English Translation: Washinton solicits aide in oil.

From what I can read, it appears as though the major European nations have agreed to send us oil, or the refined products from oil. I've also been following The Guardian, and as of today they have said nothing of foreign aid.  Not surprisingly very little has been said in the Arab News online English Paper. Japan Today (http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=2&id=347992) reports that the Japanese governement will send $500K in aid, and Japanese automakers will be sending aid in the millions in the form of vehicles and other essentials.


This is a tragic, tragic disaster. People knew that it was going to happen eventually, so why wasn't the infrastructure in place to guard against such a catastrophe? Why didn't the government force people out before the tragedy occurred. Why was New Orleans allowed to grow in a basin, where any natural disaster could flood the basin?

What will happen to the city and its people? Will the city remain where it stands today, or will it be moved elsewhere, and it become the US's first major ghost town? The city probably won't be habitable for a year, and they'll be lucky if the city will be dry by Christmas. There is also the uncertainty of another storm coming through, and given the massive activity that has been occurring this hurricane season (which meteorologically speaking is only halfway through), that could happen. This is not something that can be fixed just by cleaning up. People are going to be permanently displaced, and the Big Easy will cease to be so big. I pray for the well being of all those displaced, and I hope that everyone down the road will be able to get their lives back together.

I don't think other countries can really do something at the moment. The big mess has to be cleaned up first.

The avatar is my future exwife Kelly Carlson (Nip/Tuck, Starship Troopers 2).  She is HAWT!!!
Scott, I agree, they KNEW that Katrina was coming.  But... how could they know that the levvies would bust?  That is just shitty luck in the middle of a terrible situation.
The problem I have is this:  these people KNEW Katrina was coming, KNEW to evacuate, KNEW that staying was a dumbass idea, BUT stayed anyway.  Other than the elderly and infirm I just don't get why these "refugees" are so pissed off.  They should have left, enough said...

It's not like anybody expected it to be THIS bad. And a lot of people probably didn't have a good place to go and thought it was better to stay and wait it out. It's not like it's the first storm.

A friend of mine lives near new orleans and she didn't evacuate either. One of her reasons was 'we had a bad storm before and that went well, so we'll survive this one too'. Maybe not too smart, but understandable. I wouldn't be too fond of leaving my house behind either.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4207492.stm

For some EU aid info.

When they announced it was above a CAT3 hurricane, that should have sent off the "oh shit" sensors in peoples' heads.  Guess not..
I lived in Florida from 92-99.  I helped with the cleanup of Andrew.  I was in the Navy and went through several CAT1-3 hurricanes and know their strength.  Also, when I was stationed in Jacksonville and a warning came out, we hauled ass out.  
Guess you have a point but man I just don't get why these people think they are being slighted/screwed over...

Well I figure a lot of the people in the Ghetto's couldn't get out.

When you design for a Category 3 storm, you have no guarantee at all that your levee will withstand a stupidly powerful Category 4 storm. There will always be a question of why the levees were designed for a category 3 rather than 4 (probably funding), and why President Bush cut funding on the building of levees that would withstand a cat 4 or 5 storm. It wasn't as though New Orleans has not suffered in the past. After a massive flood in 1927 of the Mississippi River, New Orleans built a levee system to keep the river out of the city. Thus, when the great flood of '37 happened, it was no where near as bad in New Orleans as it was elsewhere, such as in Cincinnati as evidenced in this photo:

(http://www.enquirer.com/flood_of_97/ph_1937_suspension_450x351.gif)

I know after that flood a whole hell of a lot of things were done to Cincinnati and the Ohio River to ensure that it would never happen again. I suppose after this tragedy, the same thing will happen in New Orleans. It's just going to sadly be too late, and there is no guarantee that these improvements will 100% protect the city, as Cincinnatians can explain after the Mill Creek barrier dam failed during the flood of 67, and flooded the only flat area in the city.

When the levies where built the Army Core of Engineer determined it was too costly to build levies that could with stand cat 4 and 5 canes.  ???

And they say human life is priceless.

And Mother Nature always has a way to humble us humans. They can build bigger levies and one day those will fail as well.

I was watching CNN earlier and they had Condi up there and she she kinda skited around the question of us saying no to foriegn aid.
The Gov is saying that we haven't said no to any foriegn aid but then FEMA is saying we also haven't accepted any.

Hell Sri Lanka wanted to send support to us.


As for the levies busting weren't they like 40-50+ years old anyways?
I have actually heard very little about the levies.
I did hear one guy try to say that the levies in one area didn't break due to a hole that got larger.
The hole had started after the water was already flowing over the top.

I'm no engineer but that makes NO friggin sense to me.
Once the water would start to hit a hole of any size it would immediately start rushing thru and making it larger.

I don't know when they were designed, but I do know that the levees that failed were only designed to withstand a category 3 storm. This was a high category 4 storm, so it is not that surprising that they would have failed. As for whether or not the hole started after water cleared the levee I do not know, it could be possible, but I do not think that this alone would cause a levee failure, but rather seepage caused a structural failure in the levee. There are many things that could have caused the levee to fail. If there was a small leak the pressure would have caused the leak to have a rather large flow rate, and as flow rate increases, pressure decreases in the system. This pressure drop could have torn away at the levee's ability to support itself; therefore there would be a failure. The other reason it could have failed could have been with they way levees work in general. Levees keep water back, but unless water moves elsewhere more flood water tries to move in, creating a swirling current that effectively acts much like a drill. This sometimes leads to a breach in the levee called a blew hole. To combat this, pumps are used to keep the swirling currents from forming.

One of the things about  levees is that like it or not, levees fail. Ask anyone in California what a levee breach and its recovery process is like. It's long and painful. To secure only the breach and stop the leak could take up to 2 to 4 weeks, and then there is the process of pumping out the floodwaters. It is not a quick fix. In two years when I take hydrology I'll be able to tell you more about this, but for right now my engineering base is not in the aforementioned, but rather transportation and basic structures.

Here's what Kanye West had to say:

http://rapidshare.de/files/4663690/kanye.avi.html

What the hell is he on about? The looks from the other guys are priceless!

That was priceless, and so is Mike Meyer's expression and disbelief. I think in the grand scheme of things the state and city are more to blame than the Feds. After all, it is not the Federal Government's responsibilty to make sure there are proper plans for these types of disasters. It would be a violation of a state's right for it to be otherwise. While the Feds can make laws regulating everyone, they can't exactly regulate just one muncipality. To be honest, I think this has been handled terribly by everyone. Louisana made it very obvious that their evacuation plan and disaster plan were subpar, and when it was apparent that the federal government would need to step in it was done too late. You can't just blame one person here, and I am sure that history will make that very certain.

People need to not worry now about who is to blame but rather how to make things right. Things will never be 'normal' in New Orleans again. As much as government needs to stay out of things, they need to make sure that New Orleans is never rebuilt, or that they pump enough money to the city and dedicate it specifically for flood protection. Since they appear to be leaning towards option two, they best make the most sophisticated protection system possible, as the geographic features of the city dictate it so.

I hope our government is aware that this WILL happen again. We need to put the money in protecting now so that we don't have this catastrophe later. Unfortunately, government despises allocating money for long term projects since the current politicians don't reap the benefits. Hopefully this disaster will change their views.

It appears as though the Superdome may have to be demolished due to structural damage. I hope that little fact makes it a little bit more clear how terrible this tragedy is. If that doesn't, I am sure the thousands of dead bodies will, and the tens of thousands of dead pets sure will help as possible. Humanity needs to learn that we are not invincible, and however great control we think we have over nature is only apparent.

No atter what they build nature will break it down at some point. IMO

Pretty funny.

I couldn't even listen to the whole thing because he sounded so dumb.

I don't know if anyone heard the Celine Dion rant from Larry King Live but it was classic!  They played it on the radio this morning and I had to pull over from laughing.  What an idiot!!!
As far as the evac, what about those dozens of buses that sat empty prior to the hurricane?  Why not take those into the "ghettos" or poor areas and evac as many people as possible?  
As far as looting.  Well, if someone is getting the necessities (food, drink, clothing, supplies) it isn't looting, it is SURVIVAL.  But...if someone is getting loads of liquor, smokes, electronics, jewelry, cd's, or other nonessential items, that is theft (or looting) and is inexcusable.  And this holds true to ALL of those there, as I have seen the reports of police stealing from WalMart as well as the other people there.
I just wonder how the latest "get the f outta here" message will play out...

OK I watched it and what a stupid ass. Thats all I can say. WTF does the war have to do with the rescue?  

Here is the link if anyone wants it,


http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/04.html#a4793 ???

kanye west is an idiot. i too think mike wanted to strangle him. lol.

The celebrity outburst just get better and better lol. I couldnt stop laughing at celine dion.

I think Celine was more worried about her cheque.  Maybe she expected an award back in the post or something.

What he said is true though.   :-/

Kanye West? Eh, Not all of it, if any.

As for moving back from the remarks and towards recovery and rebuilding, I think that if they do decide to rebuild the city in the present location, which they will, that they should look to our European Friends as to how flood protection needs to be done, since they very much are the master. While Europeans may not have to deal with category 4 Hurricanes, they do have their fair share of land that is very much under water, such as that one country that is almost 50% below, what's it's name... Holland.. oh that's right. I think we have an administrator from there I hear. I also hear that in Holland that they have one of the most expensive flood protection works in the world there, called the North Sea Protection Works. You can see one of ASCE's Seven Wonders of the modern world below until the site realizes I am leeching from them.
[IMG align=right]http://www.asce.org/graphics/history/seven/neder.jpg[/IMG]

Anyways, I suppose my point is that a flood protection system for New Orleans, need to be built with the same precedence and prowess that the Zuiderzee Works were built with. Whatever is built to save New Orleans from the "big one" needs to be on the scale of the Protection Works of Holland, and must surpass the strength and durabilty of original levee system that existed. We need to take what we can learn from other flood prevention works and apply them in New Orleans with technologies that can withstand Hurricane strength winds and surges. This will not be a project that should be placed on the back burner, and politicans will be wise to look to the future, much like the Dutch did in the construction of the Protection Works.

On a side note, once reconstruction and flood protection works construction does begin, it will be a boon for the Civil Engineering Industry. It would be a great time to be in the construction industry. Kind of ironic, since it is such a tragic time.

Until some sort of GOOD flood protection is built in New Orleans, I don't think we should rebuild in the area under sea level.  This seems to be something of a taboo statement, but what point is there in rebuilding an area that could be destroyed again in just a matter of years?  Hurricanes tend to go in 10-40 year cycles of increased and decreased activity.  1995 was the begining of one of the increased hurricane activity period in the Atlantic region so we could see hurricane seasons with 20+ storms for a few decades to come.

That being said, why would we set up the pins just so Mother Nature can knock them all down again?  If we are so intent on rebuilding in that area, lets spend money on building protection first, and then rebuild the area.  I understand that the area that was devestated the most was an area that was filled with people living below the poverty line and they won't have anywhere to live, but that doesn't mean we should throw them back into a possibly deadly situation.  At the very least, we should build housing on the other side of the cresent shaped area that encircles the below sea level area of the city first.

I don't know.  I don't envy the people that have to make the decisions on this.

Surprised this hasn't been posted yet.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=New+Orleans&spn=0.104699,0.158838&t=e&hl=en

Satellite images of NOLA's current condition.

I wonder if New Orleans will be the 21st Century Galveston Texas (in 1906 the largest city in texas until the most deadly natural disaster to hit the US destroyed the city.

Nowadays, Galveston is 15 feet higher than it was in 1906. I doubt that New Orleans would completely raise the city 15 feet or more to protect itself, but I am sure that they will be able to use the amazing amount of money being poured into the city to make one hell of a protection system.

I wonder when other vulnerable cities will start begging for the type of money that New Orleans is receiving.

I donated $507.69!   :gay: