RF Generation Message Board

Well everyone, it's time to begin the process of structuring the system that allows downloadable games to be added to the database in a permanent solution. This is the next big project on the docket, and I want to ensure that we do it right. That's while I am asking, you the RF Generation community, to help craft the architecture that will allow downloadable games to be added.

While of course we want the best thing possible, there will have to be some constraints. I'll probably think of more, but for the time being here are the big constraints:

• Downloadable games need to be part of the games database. Figure out what fields are needed, and what fields can be done without. While they'll be in the same database, it does not mean that they have to be using the same display template. As a hint, stop thinking about the console field as a console field but rather as a console / platform field
• Downloadable games need to be able to be separated from physical games. Such a move will allow these games to be cataloged while at the same time keeping the collectors of our site happy.
• Determine what actually is a indexable downloadable game. Are we going to have 100% every downloadable game, or are we going to try to have a criteria for inclusion.
• Keep changes to a minimum. Think about getting the best bang for the buck with the least amount of work. Doing so keeps the code monkeys happy.
• Do not suggest no downloadable games in the system. Digital Distribution is the future. We are first and foremost a video games database. Do not forget that. That said, think of what we can do to make you, the collector, happy in this process.
• No idea is a dumb idea. If you have an idea. Let it be known.

Those initial constraints defined, let's start figuring out how to do this right. Hopefully in the next few weeks we can converge an architecture that can move this from an idea to reality.

First things first, I applaud the effort this site is taking in preserving downloadable games. This is something that will set us apart from other sites like us on the internet.

Here's my thoughts. The only requirement for a downloadable game to be counted  is that the game must be something that you can claim ownership of. Now before the YOU DON'T OWN DOWNLOADED GAMES police gets in the thread, let me explain myself. Basically what I'm saying here is that if it's a game on a service like GameTap (you pay a monthly fee to get access to their games) then it should not be included. Reason being is that GameTap is like a library. You download what you want and delete it when you're done. You don't actually "own" any of the games on the service, you merely take stuff out of their library. Whereas if you buy a game on Steam, for instance, you actually get to "own" that game since you paid for the game itself rather than the service. That's all I can really think of at the moment. I'm sure we need to come up with some kind of idea for demos and the gobs of free games out on the PC, but let's just save that for later and focus on games that you have to buy to get access to.

Now, if a game is free but on something like PSN or XBL, then it should be included. We should include Yaris and Gran Turismo HD Concept.

As far as fields go, here's what I think would be nice:

File Size: this would be the size in megabytes (or gigabytes in some cases) of the game when downloaded

Systems Compatible: This is especially important for Playstation Network games because there are some games that work only on Playstation 3, some only on PSP, and others on both. XNA games will be working on Xbox and Zune (though we don't count that as a game system)

The front cover shot should be the image that is used to represent the game on the distribution store. For PSN, it would be something like this (http://fp.scea.com/Content/store/items/20061/image/image_97x97.jpg) or for XBLA something like this (http://www.xbox.com/NR/rdonlyres/C2A4877D-CCAC-430E-82FB-4A069334572F/boxUSnPlus.jpg).

I'm fairly new around here, but I'd like to toss my 2 cents in, if you don't mind..

First of all, I agree with all of Tondog's points. If you can't claim "ownership" of a downloadable game, then it isn't really "yours". I would take it one step further, and suggest that if a downloadable game does not have monetary value, then it shouldn't be in the database. For example, take the thousands and thousands of PC demos out there that you can download for free. Any and everyone can download these demos free of charge, and thus they have no monetary value, as no one would ever pay for one. This is quite different from a physical demo disk, for they are collectible and collectors would most certainly be willing to pay for them. It's also different from a free downloadable game such as Yaris or Aegis Wing on the Xbox 360 Marketplace, in that while the game may be free, they could have easily had a price tag attached to them, and people would be willing to pay for them. The "potential" for monetary value is there. Maybe not for Yaris, but still.  ;) I would also doubt that anyone actively collects downloadable PC demos anyhow, although I could be completely wrong, and apologize in advance if that's the case.

As for how the games are cataloged in the database, I kind of like the way it is now. By that I mean the downloadable games already in the database, such as Virtual Console and Live Arcade games. Anyone can separate their downloadable games from their physical ones through the use of a custom folder. Adversely, anyone who would rather have a single, consolidated list can also do so as well. This keeps everyone happy, regardless of their preference. It also keeps the code monkeys happy.  :)

Anyways, as I said, I am pretty new around here, so I won't be offended if you think my comments are totally off the mark. I'm sure whatever gets decided, it will be great like the rest of the site already is.

I've added a couple XBLA games to the database.  Sure they might not be physical copies but I gotta keep track of everything I have somehow.  I'm good with how it is now, just ticking off 1 Game, 0 Man, 0 Box.  Don't change it too, too much :(

We should make no attempt to take images from any website for our own use. We don't accept them for the games/hardware database now and we aren't about to start. I don't know what the solution is for that, but we can't start contradicting our own policies for the sake of convenience.

If anything, the script should remove everything but screenshots and extra media. Maybe we could add PSN/XBL/VC-WiiWare store shots, where you take a pic of the store listing for the game. But whatever we do, it has to be pics/scans we take ourselves, not ones made by someone else and used without their permission.

We can change the image titles, by the way. Similar to how there is a hardware shot for hardware and not games.

Come on people, you've got to have some thoughts on this...

Damn it, there goes my idea. ;)

For now I just listed the few downloadable games I have in my collection description.

To be honest, you guys are looking at something huge, and you may want to consider more time to think about how to implement it. As stated, while from a traditional collectors prospective it may not seem right, but this is a computer & video game databaseg, so it does fit in.

With that being said, I can't think of any suggestions at this point in time, sorry.

We never said we were going to rush out this system. We want to do what is right.

Just to echo what Dave said, this will be well thought out and planned accordingly.

We've actually been discussing this in great detail since last fall in the staff forums. Some threads prior to that go back as far as 2005.

After 5 months of serious staff discussion it's time for the members to share their thoughts on this. You've all used the scripts, used the databases and most of us have downloaded games in some form or other regardless of whether we like the concept or not. So it's time for those who want these games taken seriously and added to the database to show their support for it by helping craft the plan to integrate these into the database permanently.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the longer it takes us to formulate a plan that pleases everyone, the longer it'll take to get it done and the higher chance it'll be sidetracked by other things. Those sections we currently use are temporary only and will be deleted/moved once the real database for these is in place. No worries, the credits for submissions and page info will be saved, but the listings themselves will be transferred to take advantage of the new script that meets the needs of this newer form of game distribution.

So to reiterate, here's what we need everyone to think about:

• What game information each page should show that is different than what we use already (download size, cost, release date etc).
• How images/scans will be different and how they appear on the pages.
• Changes to the drop down tabs like media format, region etc.
• Possible collection tool changes
• What we should do with input fields currently in use like UPC, Part number, Media quantity etc.

There are probably many other things to consider as well, but this is a great starting point for us to dive into what will hopefully start the ball rolling on gathering greater detail and ideas.

I think checksums should be displayed for the downloaded games, not everyone gets the game from the same download place, cnet, softpedia, fileplanet, etc. whatever and it would be nice if they could check here.  crc32, md5, sha1 or at least one high one as it's not that hard to mimic a crc32 I believe even if it's been modified.

I got stopped posting this because Tan just posted, I read it and I will put some thought into what we need everyone to think about and post back.

Just to echo Tan's statement, if this discussion becomes too drawn out, another project will definitely become priority one. In fact, there is a non-formal discussion about that project, and if you want to chime in on the preliminary discussions for the progress tracker than I highly recommend that you do as well.

The only thing that I can think of that I didn't see is that there should be some way to describe if the game was made to be downloaded or if is a port of a pre-existing game. Such as the Virtual Console games are ports of pre-existing games, but most downloaded PC games are new.
Otherwise, I think Tan has all the necessary fields in his first post.

Port versus new is more of a trivia thing than retail or technological information. We have a trivia field on the gamepages now that will carry over into whatever form the downloadable games take. Also it is an incrediblely hard thing to determine, especially for the VC games.

Anyone own or play Mario kart 64 for the VC? They made several changes, not all of them obvious ones either. Some are easy to spot like the changed advert banners along the tracks, showcasing newer Nintendo products like the Wii, no ghost data because the feature for a N64 mem card doesn't exist, as well as the inclusion of 480p.

Now one could argue that the fundemental idea of a port is the basic game with a few changes, and for the most part I'd agree. But to call all VC games straight up ports when they are in some cases more than that would be a less than accurate label to slap on them that hundreds of current games in our database would fall under also.

As I said the trivia section or overview for increased detail would be ideally suited for that kind of information. Also if one is enterprising, they could add the pre-existing game as a related title so it is referenced on the game page. Here's an example:

http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/getinfo.pl?ID=U-152-S-00210-A

 ;)

Wow, no one really has a strong opinion on this. A pity.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the field Media Format already have something along the lines of download  as a selection?

Yes but that is intended only as a temporary solution for those downloadable games we have in the current sections that will be copied over. The most important part of planning something like this isn't making it suit our needs, but looking to the future and suiting needs we may not even have yet so the scripts and databases don't need massive recoding, testing and learning curves.

For example, let's say "Game A" was sold through Steam, the publisher's website and through a downloadable kiosk onto a flash card. Instead of having to list it as trivia or making 2 variations, we could simply select all three from a dropdown list like we are choosing ratings descriptors.

Like This:

Steam
Windows Live
Nintendo Virtual Console
Gametap
Fileplanet
Publisher website
In-store Kiosk
Playstation Store
Xbox Live

Having a mix of specific services and generic ones should cover all the bases without making the list overly long. Just one of many ideas but you see the potential here for how much more detailed the digital database could be. :)

Ah I see. It's a good idea having it as a selectable field for the mean time.

Since we are now adding downloaded games to the database does that mean mobile (cell phone) and iPod games are also going to be added too?

Why did you have to go and open up that box? ;)

I say no to mobile phones at least. I'm a little more willing to accept iPod games, however.

Cell Phone Games Make Baby Jesus Cry

Except Ratchet and Clank: Going Mobile. The only cell phone game I've ever bought.

I know that vast majority of mobile games are under 1MB, play awfully thanks to having to use a number-pad and are well.... terrible. But there are a couple of good ones out there.... but that is also debatable with the same game being different on different phones. I'll never bring it up again if no one else does. I still wanna try the mobile Guitar Hero though.

iPhone games will be a must.

I'm starting to add VC/Wii Ware titles, but I've got a question about the VC games, for Year, should we put the release date it was originally released (like it lists on the details page of the VC channel) or the year it was released on the VC?

The year it came out on the VC. Also be sure to add the original release as a related game for easy reference on both the Virtual Console and original release pages.

Also, thank you SO MUCH for doing this! We really appreciate it.

OK, finding the year it was released on VC will require a little digging, but I'm up to it.
I'll get everything in the database and go back and add related games later, I messed up a good portion of the NES VC control schemes so I'll have to edit them anyway.

I was actually surprised to see how lacking this category was, there was only like 30 titles in there before I got started. So far I finished all Wii Ware titles, all NES VC titles, and am almost done with the SNES. Should be able to finish it up tomorrow.

This might prove useful for you:

http://www.vc-reviews.com/games
http://www.wiiware-world.com/

After working with the Virtual Console and Wii Ware, I've got some suggestions now. I have no experience with Sony or Microsoft's service, so these suggestions are directed toward the Virtual Console and Wii Ware only.

1) Split the Virtual Console and Wii Ware, it's quite confusing having them the same.
2) Have two categories for year; one for original release and the other for the VC release.
3) Get rid of Part # for VC, but keep it for Wii Ware because they do have part numbers.
4) Get rid of UPC.
5) Maybe change the control scheme to be a list like the game rating; include: Wii Remote, Wii Remote & Nunchuk, Classic Controller, Gamecube Controller.
6) Change Media Format to download size.
7) Add a category to describe what console the game was originally released for.