RF Generation Message Board

For the second year in a row I have the privilege of hosting the first game of the year and once again, with the help of my co-hosts, I've come up with a game that I know will fire up the community and start off the new year with a bang! It has been a while since we played any RPGs, and we played way too few in 2016. We decided to start the new year off right with Secret of Mana for the SNES, WiiVC, Android and iOS.


As the second piece of the Seiken Densetsu trilogy, Secret of Mana follows many classic fantasy tropes of RPGs of the SNES era, and features a familiar top-down perspective. However, Secret of Mana has a rather innovative and unique action battle system where the characters' attacks must recharge over a short time before being effective again. Furthermore, unlike most JRPGs of the time, up to three players can play at once using a multitap! Gather the family around that old tube tv and join us!


Participants:
douglie007
fleach
grayghost81
noiseredux
raidou
singlebanana

Checkpoints:

well, I have this on Android and have really never played it. So looks like now I have a good excuse to do so!

Well I'm in of course

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Really excited to play this one for the first time.

I thought this one got played already, but then I just remember one of your co-hosts commenting, on how SoM is soo much better than Secret of Evermore, and thats where my confusion comes in.

app installed on tablet... doing best to resist urge to start playing now...

I'm in.  I remember drooling over this game when I saw it in Nintendo Power, and now is as good a time as any to try it out.

I have started, and had to remap the controller :) kept opening the menu to run.  anyone else changed things?

alright, I'm gonna fire this badboy up tonight. It's gonna be an interesting month. I'm juggling playing this here and Disgaea over at Racketboy this month. That's a whole lotta JRPG.

I was tempted but got used to it pretty quickly.


Coincidentally, I'm playing Disgaea 3 on the Vita right now, though it's just on my free time and I'm not sure how much longer I'm going to stick with it.


Anyway guys, I was stuck on Spikey Tiger for like two weeks before I threw in the towel and Game Genie'ed my way past him this morning. Since I'm way behind schedule on finishing, I'm thinking Spikey Tiger will be as good a first checkpoint as any. To those familiar with the game, does this sound reasonable?

No idea. Checkpoints throw me off. I just play at my own pace and hope I am doing it right haha.

That's how I prefer as it as well, I even run a lot of my playthroughs that way!

With this game I want to give as much guidance as I am able, due to the length of the game being slightly longer than we're used to.

I'd probably suggest completing the Underground Palace or the Pandora Ruins as a better checkpoint. By this point, you will have touched 2 of the 8 Mana seeds, gained access to magic, and will have toyed around with the leveling system enough to know what you're in for.

Out of curiosity, what level were you?  Spikey can be tough but he shouldn't be that much of a road block.


That's usually how I play... and I often end up beating games well ahead of the group. 

How's everyone doing here? Sorry for my lack of checkpoints so far, but I'm still lagging behind where I want to be.

For sure I think everyone should be past Raidou's suggested checkpoint of the Panora Ruins by now.

I got some good advice from Singlebanana who helped me make my party more aggressive, so we've gone from brain dead suicidal mannequins to a max aggression street gang automatically f*cking up anything in sight. It has totally changed the game for me to say the least.

I wasn't loving the game at first but as I am almost to the halfway point I am really finding a groove. Definitely falls somewhere higher than a Zelda game for me, though not as good as Chrono Trigger, and at this point probably edging out Illusion of Gaia. Definitely makes me want to play more SNES!

I played and beat this game when it first came out.  I really wish I could have joined you guys in this one as this is a fantastic game but you know the drill.  The game is at my parents.  I remember this game fondly.  I was always in awe with the Mode 7 when your flying on the dragon.  I always thought that part was great.  Another bonus for this game is it is 3 player!!!  I had the multi-tap from Bomberman and would play this with my brother and my mom 3 player.  An awesome game for sure.

Funny you should mention Illusion of Gaia, Shawn. I was thinking these games are kind of similar, although Secret of Evermore would be a closer comparison (just wish that game had a traditional magic system :( ). Maybe this game will make me want to come back to Secret of Evermore.

I beat Spiky Tiger after some level grinding on my second try. I just ice magic and will go for the Underground Palace.

One weird thing I noticed about this game is how your character goes up and down stairs. He seems to quickly switch between his idle pose and running animation. This just looks and feels so clunky.

I had a great experience with SoE in November of 2015, so I had high hopes for SoM. Honestly, my first impressions were not that great. Being fiendishly attacked with magic with no recourse during the first few boss battles was quite annoying and I have to admit, I'm not a fan of being knocked unconscious for so long. However, as I settled into the game, I really started to enjoy myself. Switching characters in battle adds an additional concept to the game and menu pausing is good for strategizing and taking a moment to determine what is going on in a battle.  I think that maybe I had a greater tolerance for the game than Shawn did, since I played SoE just over a year ago and was very familiar with the menu system and mechanics.  If you recall, that was the last year that we did a retro and modern playthrough and Shawn was on the modern side, so he didn't play SoE.  I can understand how not knowing that you can play with the Action settings could be frustrating as I think the AI is set more toward Guard.

Though I'm not as impressed with the boss' looks in SoM as much as I was in SoE, I am really enjoying the different strategies that you have to use to beat them.  Also, it's cool that some of them are push overs, while others take a lot more strategy to defeat.  This variety adds a great deal of fun to the game. I haven't had too many issues with bosses and most have been one shots, other than a few, namely the Spikey Tiger (which I think was my toughest fight so far), the Wall Face, and Axe Beak (because I didn't realize I was out of mana). Defeated Axe Beak and made it to the Wind Palace last night. Eager to continue on!

In terms of the story, the overall narrative is good. However, the acquire seed, oh no seed is stolen we must get it back, over and over storyline is getting a bit old.  I'm hoping that as more develops about the Empire, the entire narrative will be more engaging and I can already see that plot developing more in bits.  Should be a fun ride to the end.

Yeah Floyd, that stair walking animation is awful!  Minor gripe though. Ha ha!

OK, I thought my cart was glitching or something. Yeah, it's a minor gripe.

alright I really need to start this up. Maybe tonight if I get a chance. :/

I have been playing some, not as much as I would like but I just beat the witches tiger.

What level was everyone when they beat Spiky? I was at 12 and just barely made it out alive. A lot of the guides and forums for SoM suggest level 16.

I think that's how high I grinded before I gave up. What a waste of time.

I'm pretty sure I was lvl 11 or 12 when I took on the tiger. I'm not much higher than that now and I'm a good ways past it.  I've only grinded in this game a bit and it was to level up my magic once I got it.  It didn't take long. However, I'm the type of player who doesn't skip enemies even outside of dungeons. If it's in front of me, it's gonna die. Ha!

alright I did attempt to play the other night (been sick on the couch w/ a bad cold), but the touch controls are awful and I was too lazy to go dig out a controller. :\

Very close to the end of the game now and have some interesting thoughts on the game, which I will primarily save for the Playcast recording.  I think what's interesting is that I (and I think at least one of my co-hosts) am playing this game for the first time and after playing Secret of Evermore just over a year ago. So not only am I playing it many years from it's release, but also out of chronology in terms of it's relation to SoE.  I know that these two games are not related story-wise and basically only share a developer, menu system, and of course a similar name, but I can't help but notice that everyone wants to compare the two as if SoE were a sequel.  I definitely want to tackle this concept, and feel that I'll maybe have a different and maybe "fresher" perspective on these games due to how I've come across them.

Other thoughts....

- I know some may hate it, but I really dig the menu system in this game. I think that once you become accustomed to it, it's like second nature. Switching characters on the fly with the simple press of a button is brilliant and allows you to heal or continue to attack when stunned or engulfed.  

- The items in this game are simple and perfectly abundant. I never felt as though my inventory was confusing and though there are not many items in the game, I felt that there are basically just the right amount.  Armor, weapons, and magic are easily upgraded and the game is so linear that there is no confusion about which armor is better in most cases. Spell casting is also simple.

- Leveling your weapons is a little annoying, and the hit box is either a bit off, or evasion is extremely high in this game.

- This game has more reskins than a stuffed potato buffet... While reskinning common enemies isn't annoying to me, SoM definitely overuses this technique when it comes to bosses. Different color, different name, more HP, and if you're lucky, maybe a different strategy.

- The save states in this game are great. They are a bit more forgiving in the beginning, where you get to save before a boss fight, and less available as you advance in the game. However, there are times when you can open other outlets to a dungeon, leave to save, and start back where you left off. A great game design.

alright well, I have confirmed that the game does indeed work with bluetooth controllers. So... I need to catch up w/ you guys!

Currently about 25% through my second playthrough.  I've played this game a few times before, and seeing as I had a PAL and a Japanese copy lying around, I wanted to compare them. 

I just got to the Sprites village... not sure where to go from here.. so I am leveling my magic up in the room with grandpa !

Head south and all the way west. You should come to an orb that you have to use your new magic on. That will clear the path for you to your new destination.

Thanks, I found that and wondered around a little, after I died I decided I needed better Magic

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Helps to level your magic to at least level two after you get something new. Only takes a few minutes. Return to the old man and you can do it for free, since he refills your health and magic.

Protip: go into the fields when leveling up magic.  If you cast spells in safe zones such as inns and towns, you only get half experience.

Fun Story
Just beat the boss of the fire temple, and got stuck in his room.  I think it happened because I switched characters at the wrong time...
I also got this game to crash two days ago passing through a door in Gaia's Navel.  Both on the Japanese version.  Seiken Densetsu 2's original Japanese release was delayed three months  for extra debugging, and the PAL release has extra fixes on top of that.

Last night I beat the Underground Palace boss, Wall Face, and Kilroy. I think exploiting a boss's weakness with magic makes the fights laughably easy. Four or five hits with the right magic and the boss goes down.

Doesn't change as you progress through the game. All boss battles become magic spams.

I'm not complaining.

I actually encountered my first difficult dungeon. It was the Ruins south of Pandora. The Tomato Men were too much. I got to the boss with low HP and almost no magic. I decided to get a game over and just run straight to the boss the second time.

Got plenty of time to play today so let's see how far I get.

Some of the floating mobs are basically magic only and I always skip those. Later in the game you get an MP steal spell which is awesome in refilling your MP. Tomatomen and related mobs are perfect for this to be used on.

So how far is everyone, I just made it to the empire, and going in to the ruins

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Up to the Luna temple.  A bit behind but I should be able to beat by the 31st.

I finished the game last Monday. 😁

I managed to cause another softlock against a boss in the Japanese version.  After fooling around with bosses in the 2nd last area (most of them are near save points, making it a good area to experiment), it seems that holding select is what causes the post-animation scripts to not trigger, trapping you in the boss room.

This was a known shippable in the Japanese version- I'm going to have to go back to the AUS version to see if it was fixed.

EDIT: Confirmed against another boss.

@raidou Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with playing different region versions of the game. It has made for some interesting reading.

So by now obviously you should be near finished with the game. If you're not already working your way through the Mana Fortress, you have a little catching up to do.

I really appreciate the participation this month. I had a rocky start with the game, and then perhaps I rushed through the last 60% or so of the game. However I found it to be enjoyable overall and I'm looking forward to discussing it on the podcast, and I am definitely interested in checking out Seiken Densetsu 3 at some point in the future.

I found a page with a lot of cool facts, tidbits, and easter eggs from SoM and I thought you all would enjoy it if you haven't seen it already. I would avoid it if you haven't finished the game though, as there are some spoilers.

http://www.flyingomelette.com/oddities/oddities25.html

I'd read that article, as I was trying to find more info about the boss glitch.  I find it really interesting that NA localisers attempted to increase the 6-letter limit for names, but abandoned it.

A couple of interesting oddities from Japanese version:

-The icon for the Gnome spell, Earth Slide is an animated catfish.
-The font used for Roman letters and Arabic numbers is noticeably different.
-The second robot battle IS NOT a palette swap of Kilroy. It's called Death Machine and fights with a chainsaw.
-The title screen is a more zoomed out version of the NA/PAL releases.
-The SD2 instruction manual gives names to the characters (The Boy = Randi, The Girl = Purim. The Sprite = Popoi), and these are used as default names in the Android version.

There are two major bug fixes I've found so far in the PAL versions:

Spoiler (hover to show)

-The guard to Potos Village will have his dialogue trigger one tile south of his character model to stop the re-enter Potos glitch.  In the Japanese/NA versions, you could push up against him and keep pressing select until all three characters clip through him.  This will get you stuck if you don't have the Flammie Drum.  There is still a way to re-enter Potos but it requires three controllers.
-The Ice Country drop-off point is one screen south of Neko in order to prevent the Flammie/Neko save glitch.  In the Japanese and North American SNES versions, Flammie will drop you off in the screen containing Neko. Getting dropped off on the same screen as Neko, saving and soft resetting can corrupt your save, but is the first step for a few game breaking glitches.

EDIT: Holding select during the final boss' death animation doesn't get you stuck, the credits play as normal.  This bug seems to have been fixed in the PAL versions.

Some very interesting stuff Raidou. Thanks for posting!

Hidden cat? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170130/0fd2459ef45daaab57ba0d6276dce45f.jpg)

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Well you can't buy anything from it but candy. I didn't dare save at it. And I couldn't find it again

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The same thing happened to me. The Nekko triggers when you're not even near him.

Made it to the last set of bosses before February, still didn't beat it in the one month.  I think I spent too much time trying to level up all the magic to atleast 6

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Well, the month is up!  I'd like to hear some thoughts on this game before we move onto the next one. For those who have played Secret of Evermore, I'd like to get some feedback on how their compare and which one you prefer, if either.  Thanks for playing our January game!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170201/202197063123d3eb92066559d24042df.jpg) and done.  I loved it. I got annoyed with the 2 that follow getting stuck on background

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@douglie: Curious - I played through twice and got the 3/4 moon ending each time.  What were your weapon/magic levels like?

Amen to that Doug!

All Magic 5 to 7 and weapons I used around the same. I don't know what the moon stands for.

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No one knows what the moon stands for.  TCR seems to think it's based on play time (unlikely) or some other unimplemented mechanic.  It's not based on character levels, so I thought it may be based on weapon/magic level.  Judging by your response, that's probably not the case.  Also, did any one else notice that the scene directly after the final boss fight shows two moons, when all other scenes/artwork depict one moon?

I'd just like to discuss music.
While not the most technically impressive soundtrack, it does have some stellar pieces.  The obvious standout piece is the title theme (Angel's Fear), but noteworthy tracks include the ruins theme (Ceremony), the penultimate boss' theme (The Oracle), the Mana Fortress' theme (Leave Time for Love) and one of the overworld themes (The Dark Star).

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170202/6433a42e79985d4225c34a038d656ec0.jpg) I did see the 2 moons, I wonder if it's the items you have, in the usable items I had at least one of everything in my inventory, making a full moon.  Did you have one of everything, including the barrel?

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I missed the barrel and, in one playthrough, the Midge Mallet.

I saved right at the end, I can sell all but one or to items and see if that's it

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Hmmm..... I will check my inventory.  I think I bought a barrel, but could be wrong. I definitely had the Midge Mallet and the Moogle Belt.  Where there any other specific, non-purchasable items?

(http://i1029.photobucket.com/albums/y359/necrom99/Playthroughs/IMG_20170123_223227_zpssravprkq.jpg)

Those are the only ones I can think of.

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Okay, so I replayed the final dungeon on the PAL version, but this time with barrels (the only in-game item I had missed).  Still 3/4 moon on the end screen.  I also managed to decimate the Mana Beast, killing it in 1 cycle, so the end final boss battle probably isn't a factor.  Oh well.

EDIT: The last idea I have about the moon is that it may depend on the number of times saved, which is why I got the same result on two different versions.  Don't think I'll be testing that theory out any time soon though.

So weird

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Recording our Secret of Mana cast in a few minutes.

Darn, I missed this one. My all-time fav SNES game. I even have a cart of the Hard version hack. I might be the only person on earth who owns such a thing, as it was custom made.

Very cool!  Be sure to look out for more upcoming playthrough titles. We will definitely have another RPG slated for this summer.