RF Generation Message Board

Episode 10 is live!

I can taste it now.

Wait I said that last time...

And it tastes so--

Whoah, I just had a moment of deja vu, too...

I don't know if you guys are gonna like this flavor ;)

So it's not banana flavored, then?

About 40 mins in and you all are talking about Suikoden.

I'm just the man you need to clear the air.

Both of the PSP releases, (1 and 2 re-release and the new one) did not leave Japan. Suikoden Card Stories is for the GBA and also never left Japan. Oddly enough those are the last 3 games I need period so I've been watching them pretty closely lately.

I'm about an hour in (and I got mentioned again! I geek out every time it's so funny!) and so far it's great as usual! I can't wait to hear the main topic and I have recently dabbled in the black arts of modding and back-ups and such.

@GrayGhost81: I hope your soul isn't stained ;)

No, I'm sure you get into this in the podcast, but by playing a back-up of Magic Knight Rayearth (as I did a few months ago) on my modded Saturn, the only person I'm hurting is some price-gouging reseller. Also I would still want a real copy of the game if I ever came across one at a reasonable price.

As a rule I don't pirate current gen stuff. That's big of me right? ;)

You also hurt Crabmaster a little bit :(

Explain please? (Unless I will find out when I finish listening to the podcast)

I think it'll come out well near the end of the podcast, but basically I'm an illogical baby when it comes to certain things ;)

Alright, looking forward to discussing it once I finish this behemoth of a show.

What's the matter? You guys couldn't find 6 more minutes of content to make an epic 5 hour episode? Maybe if more people had donated, you'd have more people to thank and scores to talk about.

This. Get busy people. ;)

Do you guys take games as donations?  I want to donate, but Christmas wiped me out, and I have twins coming in February.  I have 10 or so N64 games that just sit.  What do you think?  I wish I could say the games were Conkers Bad Fur Day, Banjo Kazooie, etc., but they're sports games :)

International Superstar Soccer 2000 is a sports game.

Take the deal!

You could always sell the games and then use the cash as your donation. Even if its a few bucks it helps out.

Yeah, that's what I thought about doing.  Unfortunately there is no ISS 2000 in the lot of games.  What about an auction?  If all else fails I will just throw them up for sale.  I could throw in an extra N64 console.  It would be a great chance for beginning collectors to start an N64 collection.  I am at work atthe moment, but my next day off (Tuesday) I can get everything posted.

Listened to the entire show.  Loved it. Keep up the good work guys.

I'm about 40 minutes in.....I'm going to donate $20 just so you have to list everything i pick up, and you're going to love me when its over :)

So looking forward to it!

I haven't been able to listen to the entire podcast yet, just over two hours in.  I am surprised I got mentioned.  I didn't find anything rare, but I guess my pawn shop haul of all the SNES/NES/N64 games and SNES 2......errr I mean SNES mini for around $30-$40 was pretty sweet.  I  also thought you would like that little message on the index card WildBil, I stole the text from Oakley sunglasses (remember when those were the must have sunglasses?).  It always makes my day when I hear everyone's awesome scores.  Maybe I will find something interesting for you guys to mention on the next podcast.  Keep up the good work guys!

That was a pretty awesome score.

I've got a sweet haul in the works. My area has gone Sahara, so I'll probably have to turn to ebay to earn myself a nod in the next podcast.

Don't feel bad, I live in a small town, and that one pawn shop is the only place to find any retro games.  The good thing is every game is $1.00-$2.00 each, the bad thing is they only have retro games 3 or 4 times a year. :(

Great show guys. I guess dealing with these issues always devolves into a series of judgment calls. I think it's okay to play Magic Knight Rayearth on my modded Saturn because realistically I will never own a real copy and the original copyright owners are not losing money on me. On the other hand I have a problem with straight up pirating Farcry 3 or whatever, as that hurts currently operating studios. Both are kind of the same thing, I'm just making a judgment call for myself. We humans can justify anything if it suits us.

I'll throw in that I would never endorse using one of those micro flash cards in my DS......at least that's what I thought until someone gave me one loaded with games for Christmas. Now I'm totally fine with it for some reason.

Rayearth doesn't seem to be in the outrageous price range, but I appreciate that we all have our lines.

I'm glad it stirs thought. Certainly each of us has to make these decisions, but I think it is particularly thorny for the collector.

I can appreciate that kind of mentality and I think I agree with you. Its so easy to make exceptions to our morality when things change. A little cognitive dissonance can disrupt any belief.

i fully understand it for any game made by a company or publisher that doesn't exist anymore. anything else though, no matter how old, has the potential to be put into compilation packs or HD remakes, and the copyright owners are still operating and have the right to earn money off past properties in any way they see fit. for that reason i don't like pirated games no matter how old, and i would only draw the line of acceptability at the point where the one and only way of playing a game legitimately is to shell out thousands of dollars just because of market value. at that point it's completely understandable.

I think most of us feel very similar to that even though its a completely arbitrary "magic" line. How much is too much for typical market value? $100? $500? $2000? It doesn't really matter because at $2 or $10,000 the price shouldn't affect the morality of the issue. We just bend the rules to accommodate what we think it fair, and that is going to be slightly different for everyone.

my thinking on that though is that those prices are all subjected to the used game market, what people are willing to pay, etc. prices are driven up when people really want to get something, and as interest and willingness to pay high prices drops off, the prices go down. if the price is outrageously high because of what a few high paying buyers pushed it to, then i think it's a little different.

compare it to someone talking about the price of a game being sold at retail, and claiming that "$60 is too much for one game! i'm going to show them what i think about that by not paying for it!"

basically what i mean is when it's used, if people don't want to pay a price, the price adapts (eventually). buying new, when people don't want to pay it, they either don't get the game or they resort to piracy.

therefore in the case of used games, i think price does affect the morality of the issue, because maybe the morality of the original people that pushed it up that high should be in question. new games have somehow managed to keep roughly the same pricing even with inflation, so there's not too much to say against the price point, considering technically it's been costing us less the higher inflation goes up. like i said though it still hinges on whether or not the publisher and developer are still operating. if there is a way overpriced used game, maybe wait and eventually you might get a cheap re-release from the publisher someday. many times piracy is just the laziness of impatience.

Well put, my friend. You're right.

My thoughts of piracy are that even though emulators got me into retro collecting, I can't - and won't - go that route anymore. On a purely superficial level I couldn't get comfortable with the controls. The image resolution wasn't great either. I never took the publisher or developer into consideration, but I realized that in the end it's not fair to people who worked hard to create and release this game. Someone who slaved away designing the levels or programming the game gets snubbed by piracy. Money aside, the people who brought the game to fruition are robbed of the due credit.

That's why I decided to start searching for the games locally and actually play the real thing. It's simply more satisfying to own a physical copy of the game. It allows you to reflect on the hunt and excitement of finding the game when you hold it in your hands. There's nothing better.

In terms of reproductions I'll buy and play them if that's the only way I can access the game. I'd consider myself a fan of localizations. I figure that if the people put time and effort into the project they should receive adequate recognition and compensation for their work.

The "labour of love" comment made in the podcast was a great description of the localization and home brew scene.

So there has been a healthy discussion on "back-ups" and piracy, but not much mention of pirate originals and flash carts. Anyone have any thoughts to share?

i'm only just listening to ep 10 now, so i might add more once i hear what they have to say ;). i agree too about it being more than just the money, it's about giving credit where it's due as well. the physical copy arguement is more of a collector's point of view...it would probably fall on deaf ears for the majority of gamers.

@duke what do you mean by pirate originals and flash carts? i haven't gotten to the main topic in the podcast yet...do you mean homebrews?

I'm planning to get a powerpak sometime, but that's really only because of my own NES homebrew development dabbling. Being able to test your code on real hardware is pretty important, especially if you're planning on putting it on a real cart.

Seems like the dividing line between pirate originals (and I mean original originals, not original games based on Mortal Kombat or Mario or something.) and unlicensed carts is a tad arbitrary to me. You guys mentioned something about how unlicensed carts count because they were released during the life of the system, but what about something like, say, Sunday Funday? It was released after the last licensed NES cart. Does that make it a pirate cart all the sudden? On the flipside I don't even really know of any actual pirate originals so maybe it's a pointless debate.

I think it was Duke who said he was okay with stuff like those NES clones and 'hardware emulation' since you use real carts, but not with emulating on a computer. Some emulators for certain disc based systems (Ps1 for example) can actually run games off of their retail disc. As in you put the retail disc in the CD/DVD drive and it just reads the data off that and runs it on your computer. Where does that fall for you? What about using SNES or Genesis emulators along with a retrode (https://www.retrode.com/)? With these methods you wouldn't be downloading anything besides the emulator. You'd be playing with your actual carts and discs.

I need to get a retrode. That's just too cool.

Seriously! I thought about getting one myself until I realized I'd probably never actually use it.

Also, me and Crabby are on the exact same page regarding arcade stuff. I want more cabs!

Also also, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable getting a repro of a fan translation unless I already owned a copy of the japanese (or whatever) original.

I want to get back into doing speedruns, and emulator is much easier to iterate runs on than the actual hardware. However, I'm against pure digital emulation, and tired of answering questions about the legality of emulation when I own the original software/hardware.

"You don't like Seaman?"
*I snicker like a child*

@techwizard: A pirate original is just a modern unlicensed title. A flash cart is a device that allows you to play ROMs on real hardware.

@Quackula: Not sure if you want to hold off, but RetroZone is going to be releasing an updated Power Pak soon.

Traditionally in NES circles, unlicensed means a game that was created without a proper license from Nintendo to run on the NES within the lifespan of the system itself. Sunday Funday is typically considered the last unlicensed cart.

An example of a pirate original would be something like Aladdin II, which goes by several different names, but is a simple flying carpet shooter.

In theory I have no problem with playing games on a PC with a Retrode, but personally I wouldn't do it. Emulation on a PC of disc based games? Again, I don't have any issues with it, but it's not my thing.

I'm really enjoying this one, and loved the shoutout.

Not even I have figured out how to pronounce the end of my username - 'ErGII' was the result of me spending a half hour trying to spell my real name in Dragon Warrior using the Power Glove. That was as close as I got, and it stuck as an online handle. I rarely ever have to say it out loud, so...ER-gee works, I guess.

Crap, I just remembered I forgot to put the new episode on my iPod before going to work today. I guess I'll have to wait another day...

Man at the rate this is going you guys are going to have a 12 hour podcast by the time August rolls around.

Listened to the show today, good show.

I think I could have a pretty good conversation on the emulation thing. I kept wishing I was there to jump in.

Emulators are not illegal or bad by themselves. Saying they are is like saying cars are bad because you can speed in them. Sure, people speed, and maybe everyone does at one point or another, but that doesn't make cars bad, or wrong, or illegal.

Emulators can be used for all sorts of fun and good things. As far as I can tell, all of the original Vectrex games are perfectly legal and good to go on emulation. Many people who make homebrews only release for play on emulators. And even the homebrewers who make games available on carts (or disc or whatever) often let you download the rom's for free. If you want to make a game, emulators are a lifesaver. What would the homebrew scene be like if there were no emulators for the programers to test on?



I kinda look at the people on RFG and the people who listen to the podcast, (me included of course) generally speaking, to sort of belong in the historian/curator club. And I look at pretty much all of what you talked about in the show to be part of the video game history. So, one way or another, some of us need to take care of all forms of gaming.

Not everyone needs to take care of backups or emulation, not everyone even needs to like it, but it is part of the history of gaming. You could look at it like a more traditional historian, some of them are big into 19th century Europe, others don't care a lick about that and are into the peoples of Asia.

It's kinda important to make a division on what you aren't into because it is illegal (however big or small, or at one time or another) and not liking it because, it just "isn't your thing."


Oh, and I kept wondering what the conversation in the show would have been like had you guys been big into PC gaming. Somehow I think that would change some of your opinions about copies and whatnot. I try and buy many copies of games good for lan parties. I can pretty easily see someone (like me) having several old PC's, say 3, having friends come over, want to play something like Mech Warrior on a lan and me only having 2 copies of Mech Warrior. Do I create an iso so the third person can play? In my house, on my computers, with a game I already own?

(That specific thing has never happened here, but you get my point)


All that being said, I'm not really into emulation, I don't really mind it but it's not really for me.

Finally got around to listening today. I was listening for a few hours and you guys were wrapping up, and I thought "oh crap, another episode is coming to an end" but then I realized it was still on the small scores segment, and I still had plenty to listen to.
Also, I feel really special being the only other person besides those who recorded it to have heard the "pilot" episode. Its totally worth the $30+ donation.

@nupoile: Certainly hardware emulation in itself is perfectly legal. There are problems when it comes to making that emulation useful when many of them require a copy of a BIOS and that can be a legal issue depending on the country. I don't think any of us said they are evil (at least in a serious way), but we are collectors on a show about collecting.

Perhaps the historian reference is fairly appropriate, but at least for me it is about keeping the experience pure and the same as it was originally. We wanted to talk about all of this exactly for the reasons you bring up, and that people have a lot of different feelings on the matter. It really opens great topics for discussion, and I don't expect most anyone to see eye to eye on it.

Perhaps not being a PC gamer I don't exactly understand why I would feel different about that matter if I was. If you put up the same scenario with Xbox's, Halo, and needing one more copy, it's really the same thing.

I'm glad we had a thought provoking discussion, that's definitely the idea :)

Here's something cool for everybody.

GOG runs entirely on emulation. Every game you download unless its really new like Witcher, Witcher 2, etc. comes with the latest version of DOSbox and the game files. CDProjekt went out and got licenses and courted publishers who owned old IPs though, and everybody was happy.

Certainly a great use of emulation, and reminds me of another great implementation: backwards compatibility on consoles!

@Duke

I think in the end we probably see pretty eye-to-eye. Personally, I have limited use for emulation. When I tell people I collect old games and they tell me they have all the NES games on their PC, dirty looks from me follow.  :P

A big part of why I collect is to play games as they were originally played, or to keep the experience pure as you say. I am definitely on that side. Paraphrasing Crabmaster, you should have to fight and suffer to play games, just like we did back in the day  :)

I really wasn't trying to get anyone to jump on or off the emulation band wagon. Saying that there is a place in the world of gaming were emulation exists maybe was more what I was getting at.


I'm going to try and take a stab at explaining what I meant about maybe having a different view if a person was a PC gamer. PC gaming, from one perspective, is very different than console gaming, the hardware is different from one persons PC to the next. Games (and other programs) have all along been set up so they could work on whatever hardware the person had, as much as possible. Some games completely install themselves on the hard drive and never need the original disk again. Back in the day games came printed out as code in a magazine or book and you entered them in by hand.

One experience I had was getting a disc based game to play on a netbook with no disc drive. What I did was to make and iso file with another computer, transfer the iso to the netbook and then play the game. The original disc was there on the desk, next to the netbook looking pretty but otherwise unused. Maybe slightly inventive but I don't think it is anything too far out of the normal with gaming on a PC.

And then there is DOSBox, I happen to have a few old PC's, but if you don't or just want to use a newer PC to play older games, DOSBox is great. If you want to play a game on a 3.5" disc on a new PC, DOSBox is going to come up. Then you will wonder were to put the 3.5" disc. I use an USB external 3.5" drive (if someone can point me to an USB 5.25" external, please do.) Do I actually play the game with the disc in the drive? No, I just copy it to the hard drive and play from there. To me this is just what you do. I think the only reason we didn't do it back in the day was because floppies were cheaper than hard drives.

Look at all that I typed ^^^ and I could say more too. You're right, you've been provoking my thoughts  :laugh:

And you did remind me, I need to get a few more copies of Halo....

Guys! 

I came to RFGen for the collection tools and quickly fell in love with the Podcast.  In fact, I love everything all of you are doing here on the site.

Thank you so much for the entertaining and informative show.  Also a big thanks for mentioning my little side project (Kraken) in your show.  That was pretty awesome to hear.

welcome to the site, or the forums that is as it sounds like you've been using the collection tools already :). it's a great community, and the collectorcast is awesome

Aha! The Kraken awakes! Welcome to the site, and I'm glad you enjoy the show. Thanks for donating!

@nupoile: I see where you're coming from with PC gaming. Back when I played games on a computer, they were all practically the same model for everyone (TI-99/4A, Commodore 64, etc.)

One question though: couldn't you just install a 5 1/4 inch FDD into your modern PC? Has Windows finally killed all support for those beasts?

WMI can still find them, so it's theoretically possible. There'd have to be one with drivers that worked, though. Hmm...

Why would you need drivers for an internal drive? If 3.5" floppies still work I would think 5.25" would. They work off the same connection type.

Glad to see we woke the Kraken! Welcome to the site and thanks for the kind words (and cash ;) ).

For the record, my screen name is pronounced So-za.  Or Sew-za.  Or So-Whateverthehellyouwanttocallme.  Za.

Great show guys!  I missed the last 8 minutes of it, so I'm sure that's where you sent very expensive call girls out to everyones house.  With pancakes.  Mmmmmm, pancakes.

Call girls only make it to the houses of those that listen to the entire show.
[img width=549 height=362]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-21_jyYvyZxo/T16-fJ9X6oI/AAAAAAAADqI/HaJaKxYuxfg/s1600/themoreyouknow.jpg[/img]

Just finished listening to the Collectorcast. I'm that you didn't pull any punches regarding the subject matter, and thanks for the mention.

There was a NEOGAF thread on Reproduction carts not too long ago:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=501466

I don't mind emulation and still play a game of MAME every now and then, but prefer the real thing. I received a Model 1 Genesis for my Birthday with the wrong power adatper (model 2) and when I went to return it they gave me the Model 2 Gensis, a NES, and a Super NES for free. Haven't gone back to emulation for consoles since.

I remember the SWC, Z64, Doctor 64 etc, and I still have my V64 JR. It's the same unit that Acclaim used during the N64's lifespan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_V64

@ reproductions: I would buy a repro of NWC, or VS SMB, or Campus Challenge. For me it has to be something that I can't buy on the Famicom. (repro prototypes are ok with me)

@ pirates: There are some interesting pirates that I want to try for the Famicom such as FF7 and Pokemon. There are two other systems where pirate carts are as prolific as the Famicom. They are the NeoGeo MVS and the GBA. Maybe a topic of discussion for another day?

@ flash carts: I would buy a powerpak. I tried out the Battle Kid 2 demo that was released and would have loved to try it on actual hardware.

@ homebrew: I love what comes out of the homebrew community and can't wait for Battle Kid 2.

I wonder what Crabby thinks of the digital releases that were later put out on dvd such as:

http://www.amazon.com/XBLA-games-on-disk/lm/R2G6QIOVCNFCVI

@bill: The PC version of Super Meat Boy received a retail release. I think it Steam activates though...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Meat-Boy-PC-Ultra-Edition-Not-Redeemable-on-Steam-For-Collectors-Only-/251198642431?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item3a7c9b18ff

Love em!! Looking forward to actually playing Journey now!!

I remember someone mentioning Star Wars Legos on the podcast.  I introduced my 5 year old to Legos about a year ago, and he loves Star Wars (Darth Vader is his favorite).  Anyways, you can imagine whathe got for Christmas.  It's not as fun as it sounds, he makes me build the sets and he likes to buildthings to smash into them.  It stops being fun when you spend 5 hours building a whole city of Legos, and come home from work to find a wasteland of Legos.

yay! Journey is incredible, and the collector's edition is jam packed with content. best $30 i ever spent.

I'm not really into online releases so I was so happy when I learned that Journey was getting a physical release.

Awww, I was having so much fun with SOWZA!

Great to see all this Journey talk.  Don't overlook Flow and Flower.  Very cool games.  Flower is beautiful.

i have yet to try Flow, but i went about halfway through flower. it's really good, but after Journey it's hard to compare. i do like it though

I tried Flow, but it really wasn't for me. I'm not sure I can get into the free form type of games.

Hey now!

I know I’m way late with this—and I totally skipped out on the last CollectorCast—but here are my fave bits from the first 30 minutes of the show:


0:05 No. I am not. But let’s do this anyway.

1:05 I’d be more impressed if they were making a Skylanders figure of you. No big surprise, I know…

1:30 “Is it gonna be a foil?” Heh!

4:05 Good lord, Crabs, your uttering of “We do!” was so hilariously giddy, you got me laughing like a mental patient. And if there’s anyone who knows about mental patients, it’s me.

A few more sound bites like that, and you’ll have a well-stocked CollectorCast soundboard on EBaumsWorld in no time.

12:18 “Nah, we just wanna kill people with guns (in video games).” Careful with that kinda talk-- it's liable to get Jack Thompson all hot and bothered. And you don't want that.

12:50 The nightmare begins.

15:00 actually, the DQ8 was missing both manuals, for the game and for the Final Fantasy XII demo. Big thanks to ix for hooking me up with the demo manual, BTW.

15:30 I looked all over the internet, and couldn’t even determine if it was actually released with  a DVD to begin with.

16:09 I’d have considered it… had I not already sold ‘em all.

16:40 I thought the real gem was the Golgo 13 cart I picked up for some trade credit. ;)

18:35 I try not to, anyway.

19:52 Methinks HungryMoose may be the only one in the same league as I am when it comes to Skylanders collecting.

20:35 The tractor?! Seriously? Hate to say it, but somethin’ ain’t quite right ‘bout that boy.

27:00 Oh crap, he’s collecting Jonas brothers games now?! It’s intervention time…

27:15 Extreme Beach Volleyball, eh? Perhaps there’s hope for the man after all…

28:35 You’re a real diplomat, Bil. Ever thought of going into politics?

I'm a little late to the party... I'm not embarrassed to say that I got a little giddy when I heard my name mentioned on the podcast. I had a flashback of every important moment of my life (i.e., first communion, high school graduation, pre-game baseball introductions), where my name was incorrectly announced as "Jason Lee" ("jansolee" is a mash up of my last name and my first name "Lee").

Wildbil52 blew my mind with his detective skills. Yes, I am Canadian and Mario Lemieux (#66) was my favourite position player ever. My favourite player ever was #33 Patrick Roy. As a result, since the internet age, I've been tacking 33s and 66s onto most of my usernames.

That Bil and his Hockey wisdom...

Wisdom...... I guess thats one word for it ;)