On the topic of digital games...

[Sun-Wukong]

So, I own quite a few games digitally, either through Steam, the PSN, the Nintendo eShop, or just DRM-free on my laptop. Most off them are in the database, and I'm happy about that, but I hate adding them because it asks if I have the box and/or manual for them even though, for obvious reasons, that would be impossible. So far I've just put 0 in both value boxes, but it doesn't feel like I should have to, you know?

I don't know how much trouble it would be to address that sort of thing, but it seems like it would be worth looking into.

On a related note, some new games just don't have manuals anymore, even if you buy a physical copy. And I'm not talking about how some manuals are just two pages nowadays, I mean they literally don't have a manual inside, like Star Trek for the PS3. I'm assuming the 360 version is the same as well.

[Izret101]

Moving the digitally distributed games into their own database is something i have been clamoring for since before they even were part of the database as it is now.

Hopefully with enough vocal members it will get done.

[flyingclimber]

I'd take it one step further and allow for direct import from services that offer it. For instance I'd love for my Xbox live games to be included and it wouldn't be too hard to use https://xboxleaders.com/ activity stream to bootstrap it.

[Izret101]

That i would be against.

It works great for places like www.trueachievements.com and/or www.truetrophies.com (who i would almost guarantee don't use a program similar to that one) but in an instance of adding games to a collection it doesn't know if someone is playing a digital or retail copy. What region that game is from (barring the stackable achievemen/trophy lists and region specific titles) or if the person actually owns the game or is just borrowing it.

And yes you can still borrow digital games. It is a bit trickier and i believe breaks most if not all companies ToU/ToS but i am not 100% sure.

[Zthun]

I'd take it one step further and allow for direct import from services that offer it. For instance I'd love for my Xbox live games to be included and it wouldn't be too hard to use https://xboxleaders.com/ activity stream to bootstrap it.

From my understanding, Microsoft does not want people auto retrieving things like achievements and game lists.  It's too much strain on their systems but it's also really hard to stop that.  Some sites like xbox360achievements.org respect this, but others, like raptr, don't care. 

And I agree with Izret - I would rather enter it in manually to verify that everything is correct.  It would be annoying to force add games that somebody no longer wants on the HD. 

[Izret101]

Correct Microsoft (since i am most familair with them) is very much against data scraping. They have it written into at least one of their legal documents that everyone agrees to whe they join xbox live or buy a game or visit their website or whatever else they can use to enter into an agreement with you the consumer.

Some sites have found ways around it and MS lets some sites get away with it. But they have cracked down on some and tend to change things around every year (sometimes more often) in an effort to knock down the sites/programs that do.

In fact the site flyingclimber linked to the guy stopped supporting the program in April of this year and elsewhere posted that he hoped there were no major rewrites to Xbox.com (didn't check the age of the comment.)

[Shadow Kisuragi]

Microsoft has a developer program that they allow select websites/developers to use APIs. The problem with TrueAchievements is that they can't get enough information from it, and have to selectively scrape SmartGlass/Xbox.com for the information. As you mentioned, Microsoft "allows" it, but they tend to allow those types of things from approved developers rather than just anyone.

As for "importing", it's something we can do for Steam and other digital distributors, who only have one format, but not for mixed distribution systems like Xbox 360 and PS3.

To address the "digital" needs, we need to balance extended the current system to support it, which takes a decent amount of work, vs. fixing the source of the problem, which takes a significant amount of work. However, fixing the source of the problem eventually needs to be tackled. I'll need to balance the amount of work needed for both and decide what to do here shortly, as we need to address the validity of manuals for certain games/consoles as well.

[Zthun]

Microsoft has a developer program that they allow select websites/developers to use APIs. The problem with TrueAchievements is that they can't get enough information from it, and have to selectively scrape SmartGlass/Xbox.com for the information. As you mentioned, Microsoft "allows" it, but they tend to allow those types of things from approved developers rather than just anyone.

As for "importing", it's something we can do for Steam and other digital distributors, who only have one format, but not for mixed distribution systems like Xbox 360 and PS3.

To address the "digital" needs, we need to balance extended the current system to support it, which takes a decent amount of work, vs. fixing the source of the problem, which takes a significant amount of work. However, fixing the source of the problem eventually needs to be tackled. I'll need to balance the amount of work needed for both and decide what to do here shortly, as we need to address the validity of manuals for certain games/consoles as well.

Honestly, would it be too difficult to allow negative numbers in the database for the box, and manual (or make the field nullable)?  If you see null or anything less than 0 in that field, then the UI should just display N/A.  For me personally, that would be enough.

I don't really fully agree with Izret about splitting it into 2 databases.  When you have search functionality, stats, etc, then you create a world of enormous problems and your performance is going to go to s***.  I know this from experience and generally, splitting the database into multiple databases is a bad idea for the same data. 

Unless you're going to split the UI as well (make digital not part of the current UI at all), then I would just extend the existing database schema to include the fields you need, while adding support for other things.  Right now, for digital, the only problem/issue I see is that they don't have boxes or manuals, and showing N/A in the UI would solve that.

[Izret101]

The drop box says "Databases"

I have always wanted Hardware, Software and Digital to each have their own dedicated search/database under that drop box.

Hardware already has a different page layout but too much of it was lifted from software. Digital most in need of a completely different layout is identical to software.

[flyingclimber]

Yeah. I'd lean on not splitting your DB if there isn't a strong scaling reason or functional difference for it. At the end of the day it's another game with a digital or physical property for me. No rush on this as I still prefer physical media but looking at my digital collections I only see thai increasing over time.

[techwizard]

i don't entirely understand how multiple databases would be worse for performance. if someone is searching for a digital game, and that search function only had to crawl through digital games, wouldn't that be much faster than crawling through all of physical games, hardware, and digital games? i'm sure it would take extra storage space and some more coding/search pages, but otherwise i don't see the issue.

[NES_Rules]

i don't entirely understand how multiple databases would be worse for performance. if someone is searching for a digital game, and that search function only had to crawl through digital games, wouldn't that be much faster than crawling through all of physical games, hardware, and digital games? i'm sure it would take extra storage space and some more coding/search pages, but otherwise i don't see the issue.

I highly doubt it would have any effect on our hardware, if anything, it would be like what you're saying and would be slightly faster. The whole problem with a digital database is one of man-power, not computing power. The few people we have that can do something like this are still busy fixing bugs that have arisen over the last decade, there's just very little time to devote to creating entirely new features.
The good news is that the list of bugs is getting shorter and shorter, so eventually, we will be able to devote some real time and effort into getting a digital DB up and running.

[Zthun]

i don't entirely understand how multiple databases would be worse for performance. if someone is searching for a digital game, and that search function only had to crawl through digital games, wouldn't that be much faster than crawling through all of physical games, hardware, and digital games? i'm sure it would take extra storage space and some more coding/search pages, but otherwise i don't see the issue.

You are correct if you want to isolate digital games from physical games.  But I'm talking about having a search query and just getting results back for games from all platforms, digital or physical.  You take a performance hit if you have to hit multiple databases because you can't fully utilize the sql query logic to return results depending on how advanced your search is. 

Why do you want to separate digital games from physical games so badly?  They're all just games.

[techwizard]

i don't entirely understand how multiple databases would be worse for performance. if someone is searching for a digital game, and that search function only had to crawl through digital games, wouldn't that be much faster than crawling through all of physical games, hardware, and digital games? i'm sure it would take extra storage space and some more coding/search pages, but otherwise i don't see the issue.

You are correct if you want to isolate digital games from physical games.  But I'm talking about having a search query and just getting results back for games from all platforms, digital or physical.  You take a performance hit if you have to hit multiple databases because you can't fully utilize the sql query logic to return results depending on how advanced your search is. 

Why do you want to separate digital games from physical games so badly?  They're all just games.

i think some of the main reasons are:
 - digital games should have their own pages with their own list of information, as a lot of the information currently used doesn't really apply to digital games
 - getting rid of the manual/box listings for them in the collections would be great
 - some people here don't want anything to do with digital games, they're physical snobs so it would be nice to keep them separate
 - general decluttering...it would be nice to have hardware and digital games separate as the current database is already massive

i'm sure NES_Rules or Shadow_Kisuragi could add more or correct me on those but that's all i can think of right now

[NES_Rules]

Why do you want to separate digital games from physical games so badly?  They're all just games.

The main reason I'm in favor of separating them is to allow them to have their own unique set of information fields. Basically, things like box and manual scans would be gone. UPC, media format, etc would be gone, and new fields would be added to give a better picture of what the entry is actually detailing. Plus, we'd be able to track the multitude of digital distribution systems out there, not just the main ones, and possibly be able to actually show what system the game you already have is also compatible with.

Once in your collection, they would essentially look the same though, so to your point "they're all just games" that would still be true, the only real difference would be different info fields and instead of an S for software or an H for hardware, it'd be D for digital.