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RF Generation Message Board | Gaming | RF Generation Podcasts (Moderators: Crabmaster2000, Duke.Togo, wildbil52) | RF Generation Collectorcast Episode 27 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: RF Generation Collectorcast Episode 27  (Read 5803 times)
bombatomba
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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2014, 01:45:13 PM »

Bil on an island alone with all the 4X games?  With no clock or person to tell him to stop and eat some food or do...  other stuff?  How long can a person live without food or water?  I'd give him less than a week to live, personally.  "One more turn and I'll eat."  Whatever.
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"In France, I'm an auteur; in Germany, a filmmaker; in Britain; a genre film director; and, in the USA, a bum."

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Ikariniku
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2014, 05:00:41 PM »

First, some quick hit answers:

Stuck on a desert island:  I'll put the PC aside, because it's obviously the right answer, and choose the SNES.  Despite prefering the aesthetic of the NES more, the SNES has the greatest range of games I'd want to play.  Beat 'em ups, RPGs, platformers, action-RPGs.  I'd never get bored.

Challenging game that I liked: Sword Master for the NES.  An obscure action-platformer with great graphics and very interesting combat mechanics.  The game is punishingly difficult, but very quick and fun to play.

Challenging game that I disliked: Putting aside flat out bad games (like X-Men for NES), I would lump most shoot 'em ups in this camp.  I don't have the twitchy skills to get through these games, so I mostly ignore them.

Too easy games:  This is tough, as I'm no game whiz.  However, WWF Wrestlemania for the NES is so short, with so little to actually do, that's it's easy to spam your way to victory over the CPU.  Once you've won, the only thing left is to to do it all again or find a friend/relative to play with.


Manually ramping up the difficulty makes a huge difference in the fun factor.  For example Gears of War....it was a decent game on Normal, but on Hard it was way better.  The AI was much smarter so beating it was that much more satisfying.

I agree. I really found that I didn't have to really utilize the battle mechanics in the Mass Effect games very much until Insanity. At that point you have to understand the systems well, and use them to their full advantage. It does slow things down a bit, so I can understand why others choose to play on lower difficulty.


It's not just new games that hide gameplay behind difficulty gates.  The much-maligned  16-bit beat 'em up genre did the same thing.  Developers set the "Normal" difficulty in many of these games far too low, allowing players to button-mash their way through long enough to get bored and stop playing.

However, if you set the difficulty to "High" or higher, the real meat, it's bloody veins, are exposed.   Enemy AI becomes more responsive while enemy placement/spawning becomes more devilish.  In response, you have to up your game.  You have to master the techniques the game affords you, like the "punch-punch-throw" combo in Final Fight or the air recovery in Streets of Rage 2.  The game draws you in more because you're more engaged and, thus, having more fun.

Playing beat 'em ups at high difficulty makes them more resemble their fraternal twin genre the shoot 'em up, a genre known for punishing difficulty and exciting game play.  Difficulty was the key to engaging play in shoot 'em ups, which was kept in the jump to home consoles.  Beat 'em ups lost their difficulty when ported to home consoles.  This simple difference in presentation is one of the key reasons why shoot 'em ups are still seen as relevant, engaging games and beat 'em ups are almost a lost genre.


"Groundhog Day games" I *dead* I hate *dead* I hate groundhog *dead* I hate groundhog day *dead* I hate groundhog day games *VICTORY!! A WINNER IS YOU!! 

This is one aspect of retro games (especially NES games) that I do not miss at all.  When I go back to play my old games, They'll feel totally familiar and I'll breeze through them... up until I reach the point I couldn't beat as a kid.   Then it's like being dropped in a whole new game.  I really was not great at video games as a kid, and the fact that lives and continues and my time were limited effected how far I could get in the games I owned.

This is why I have always been a very avid cheater.  I had a Game Genie for my NES as a kid, and I have one for nearly all my systems now, not to mention using save states and cheats on my Retron 5.  I understand the use of lives and continues as challenge in games.  What I never understood was why they were limited.  Sure, in some games, especially the Super Mario games, part of the game was earning enough 1-Ups to avoid the dreaded Game Over. 

However, not all games had the option of earning new lives.  Some had a very fixed amounts of lives.  This always frustrated me.  It seemed like nothing more than a waste of my time.  Sure, playing through early levels over and over would make me better at them, but, no matter how many lives I could save up, I would watch them drain away in an instant upon reaching a new hurdle.  Then I had to replay those early levels for a chance to practice what had killed me before.

I have no problem whatsoever breaking down these false barriers put down between me and enjoying my games.  Rhythm is very important in playing games, and I am against anything that breaks that rhythm.  I love Final Fight 2, to bring it back to beat 'em ups, but its continue system is broken.  Arcade-style beat 'em ups rely on keeping you in the thick of the fight no matter how often you die, but when you continue in Final Fight 2, it sends you back to a previous spot in the level.  I just turn on infinite lives and cruise right past that hurdle.

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Duke.Togo
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2014, 07:42:22 PM »

@Wempster: I haven't played any of those. I'm taking it that they are PC games?

@Ikariniku: I really miss Beat 'em ups. It's a genre that deserves some more entries, although I am probably part of the problem as I haven't purchased any of the recent ones like Scott Pilgrim and Double Dragon Neon.

Now that I think about it, I am surprised Bil didn't bring up Super Hexagon in regards to difficult games.
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bombatomba
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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2014, 08:06:33 PM »

That old Desert Island setup, eh?  PC.  I would either bring all the Space Sims or just a ton of CRPG games in the vein of Baldur's Gate.  Just me, an awesome rig pulling about 2000 watts out of the coconut generators, and a smoking hot HOTAS flight stick setup.  And of course I would become stranded after Star Citizen and Elite:Dangerous come out. 
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SirPsycho
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« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2014, 08:53:56 PM »

I'd take PC since you can load it up with emulators and every type of ROM and ISO file imaginable, it won't be perfect but you'll be able to play anything and everything you can think of, in theory. There's also the exclusive library.
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Women were the reason I became a monk - and, ah, the reason I switched back... - Morte

Well I, for one, plan on discovering the secrets of the multiverse by rubbing cottage cheese on my belly and eating vast quantities of fresh-water fish. Mmm... cheese. -The Nameless One
Duke.Togo
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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2014, 09:03:58 PM »

Everyone's forgetting the one genre part. Let's play the game a little different, your limit is a console and a genre.
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Ikariniku
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2014, 09:48:01 PM »

SNES, beat 'em ups.  It's that easy.

Also, Duke, the PC space has become a haven for new beat 'em ups both professionally made and fan made.  They vary in quality, but I try to support them in hopes of reigniting the genre. 

If you just want some fun beat 'em ups to play, don't be afraid to mine the past.  There's tons of beat 'em ups out there.  The golden age of them may have been brief, but it was fruitful.  Some personal recommendations of mine for overlooked beat 'em ups are the Rushing Beat series (Rival Turf, Brawl Brothers, and the Peace Keepers here), and Sailor Moon and Sailor Moon R on Super Famicom.  If you've got deep pockets, pick up Sailor Moon for the Mega Drive.
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GrayGhost81
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« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2014, 08:10:38 PM »

Great show. This one is a very nice general topic that should have broad appeal.

I'm like Bil's friend who plays everything on easy. The only thing I would add is that if I open a game and there is an options menu, I will go there first and set it to easy if I can. Then, when the game starts I'll see if I can change the difficulty. If I can, I'll set it to normal or medium or whatever. Being able to change the difficulty mid-game is a huge feature for me.

EDIT:  Also my desert island would of course have a PS2 and my genre if I had to pick one would RPGs (playing through all the Shin Megami Tensei games alone would kill a ton of time), and if I could cheat and add all the PS1 games, forget about it!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 08:14:33 PM by GrayGhost81 » Logged

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Shadow Kisuragi
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2014, 12:02:16 AM »

Or, you could cheat with a 60GB backwards compatible PS3 in that matter.
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GrayGhost81
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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2014, 08:12:27 AM »

Or, you could cheat with a 60GB backwards compatible PS3 in that matter.

Yeah that would be great. Often I have thought about doing that in real life.
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Crabmaster2000
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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2014, 10:13:54 AM »

What a great topic. So sad I missed out on this one Sad

When you were talking about passing the controller around until someone was able to beat a certain section, that describes my gaming very much in the last year. I have a few buddies that we do exactly that with. Because of the environment we've created giving up is not an option. We play to beat the games and use opportunities when players lose to throw a few friendly jabs around. For example when we played Mega Man (the first one) last time we typically pass the controller when you beat a level or run out of lives and need to continue. We started purposely dying and trying to beat the stage with one life left so that when you pass the controller the next player has a big handicap and we can ridicule them if they die (thus continuing) during the next stage. This occasionally backfired of course and because you wasted all your lives you might need to continue and then be ridiculed mercilessly.

@Bil - Apparently your playthrough of Batman didn't sink it like I think it was meant to. As you play you unlock new abilities (mainly take downs) and master the fighting skills you should be able to more efficiently beat larger groups of baddies. Sure they throw 20 enemies at you later in the game, but with your new techniques/skills a group of 20 can be defeated in the same time that it used to take you to finish 5 guys. Its also necessary to build big combos which in turn means more EXP.

Its been a long time since I played Heavy Rain, but I seem to recall that the entire achievement list was locked so you could never see what to do to unlock things. That meant that you had to go out of your way to look them up if you wanted to ruin your playthrough and the game itself didn't encourage that. I did it and you are completely right that it makes your game significantly worse. I played Beyond "properly" and enjoyed it soooooo much.
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Want to see someone barely eke through a whole pile of NES games? Check out my youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/us...00Crabmaster?feature=mhee

300+ NES games beaten since October 2011

Co-Host of the Rfgeneration Collectorcast:
http://rfgenerationcollectorcast.podomatic.com/
wildbil52
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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2014, 10:46:14 AM »


@Bil - Apparently your playthrough of Batman didn't sink it like I think it was meant to. As you play you unlock new abilities (mainly take downs) and master the fighting skills you should be able to more efficiently beat larger groups of baddies. Sure they throw 20 enemies at you later in the game, but with your new techniques/skills a group of 20 can be defeated in the same time that it used to take you to finish 5 guys. Its also necessary to build big combos which in turn means more EXP.


I know that's how it was for people who are good at brawlers.  I am not, so the combat was never as exciting for me as it was for everyone else.  I had a hard time stringing combos together.  I just hit people until I had to dodge or flip over the electricity stick guy.  The fighting felt like more of a chore than fun.  The areas where I had to use my surroundings to take a room of enemies out were much more interesting to me than fighting 30 dudes.  Now that I write that, it sounds very similar to the reasons that I like the combat in The Last of Us and Far Cry.  Analyze the area, plan your course of action, execute.
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Crabmaster2000
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« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2014, 11:04:32 AM »

Lol, Im the opposite. I cant wait to be done the stealthy sections. When I went for the achievments I had a blast doing the combat missions and loathed the stealth sections.
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Want to see someone barely eke through a whole pile of NES games? Check out my youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/us...00Crabmaster?feature=mhee

300+ NES games beaten since October 2011

Co-Host of the Rfgeneration Collectorcast:
http://rfgenerationcollectorcast.podomatic.com/
wildbil52
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« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2014, 11:42:23 AM »

Lol, Im the opposite. I cant wait to be done the stealthy sections. When I went for the achievments I had a blast doing the combat missions and loathed the stealth sections.

Hooray for diversity!
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wildbil52
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« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2014, 11:43:05 AM »

Bil on an island alone with all the 4X games?  With no clock or person to tell him to stop and eat some food or do...  other stuff?  How long can a person live without food or water?  I'd give him less than a week to live, personally.  "One more turn and I'll eat."  Whatever.

Sorry it took so long to respond to this, I was in a Civ V game...
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