PC database questions

[bombatomba]

I'd really like to dip my toes into the PC section of the database, but one of the difficulties of this are the sheer amount of variants available.  For example, one can usually count on at lease two variants of the game (a box and CD sleeve).  This does not take into account the renaming and rebranding of titles as the rights pass between different companies.  A good example of this would be the game Chrome (Chrome[Strategy First] -> Advanced Battleground[Dreamcather] -> Chrome[Meridian4]).

I have two questions to ask:  First, what are the naming conventions for simple box variations (box versus Jewel Case)?  Second, how do I handle rebrandings of games (see the Chrome example above)?  Would this be a Variation Tie-in?

[Sirgin]

First, what are the naming conventions for simple box variations (box versus Jewel Case)? 

For things like box variations I would use the Variation Title to describe what version they are. So CoolPCGame^{[Cardboard Box]} and CoolPCGame^{[Jewel Case]} as variations of each other is what I would do. This is similar the long boxes PSone games.

Example:
http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=U-061-S-00340-A
http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=U-061-S-00340-C

Second, how do I handle rebrandings of games (see the Chrome example above)?  Would this be a Variation Tie-in?

I'm not 100% sure what the limitations are to make games variations of each other (if any). It's certainly possible to have games with different titles to be variations of each other. Games often have different titles in Japan than they do in the rest of the world, but that doesn't prevent them from being variations of each other. I think the only limitation is that they need to be on the same platform. PS2 Madden NFL 2003 can't be a variation of Xbox Madden NFL 2003, etc...

http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=J-069-S-00000-A
http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=E-069-S-00201-A

In your example, I would submit each of those seperately, as they probably have different boxes with different UPC's and so on. Then make them variations of each other.

Hope this helps.

[nupoile]

I was adding some PC titles recently and had the same wonderings as you. I guess the root of the issue in naming variations was my getting hung up on the "original release" verses "packaging variation". This seems to assume there was a single initial release for a game, and all variants came afterwards and were different from the first release somehow and different from each other. I came to realize this (generally speaking) is a big difference between PC games and console games.

In some cases there are so many variations of a PC game defining an "original release" seems tricky. I came across a few games were the variation was so different from the original, I had to wonder if it was a separate game.

Sometimes a PC game lists one game on the front but when you look closer it is actually a compilation of games. Is that a variation of the game on the front or is it it's own listing? This Lara Croft game seems pretty obviously a Lara game at first but if you look at the front scan there seems to be 4 other complete games on the disc plus some demos:
http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=U-016-S-03071-A

I have a game, Falcon 4.0, that I listed as a variation. It seems like it is right to do this, If I changed it people would think switching the Special Edition to be the original release as a mistake. In this case I waited for this game to be released so I could buy it. So I have firsthand info on what was available at the time. Even though it says "Special Edition" right on the box, this version was literally released first.
variation - http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=U-016-S-12511-A
original - http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=U-016-S-12510-A

"Jewel Case" seems to be a common descriptor for variations that were released later on in a PC games life. This seems fine until you realize some game has 10 US variations, 3 of them were simply "jewel case" releases, looked basically the same but had a different UPC.

I could go on.

I don't really have any thoughts on how to make this easier without a complete change of the way RFG does things. And I hope no one thinks I have any angst towards this subject, it's just something I ran into again recently.

[bombatomba]

Thanks for the comments, gents.  Lots to think about.  There are many problems with PC games that make them both difficult to collect for and difficult to track properly in a collection.  For example, a box-less NES game is considered loose (no box), but that isn't true for some PC games.  If the game was made during the late-nineties/early-aughts, the game likely also had a jewel case with art on front and back.  In my own personal collection database I have two different boxes to account for this, "Jewel case" and "Jewel case edition."  Not something I would ask for in the RFG database (too complicated), but interesting nonetheless.

I think that at the end of the day Sirgin is right.  Since PC and computer games (in general) can have multiple releases that are not necessarily variations of each other.  To answer my own question about the Chrome variation, the original was released  in late 2003 by Strategy first.  A Gold Edition was released sometime in 2004 by DeepSilver, and the rights for the game were then bought by Dreamcatcher (almost immediately by my reckoning), who renamed  the game Advanced Battlegrounds: The Future of Combat.  From this point the game languished until mid 2010, where it was published on Steam.  The differences between each version appear to be bug fixes and applied patches - basically something one would find in a common Game of the Year edition. 

For a clue on how I think we should continue I turn to a variation I added for Baldur's Gate for the PC.  Basically it is the same game as the original version of the game, save that it appears on a single DVD-ROM instead of several CD-ROMs.  In fact to install it you still have to treat as a multiple disc installation - much like the original.  In short, when there are simple variations on media or appearance (such as the Baldur's Gate example) it would be a variation, but with the Chrome debacle since there are fundamental changes to the game itself they would be separate entry, but be possible related to the other games.  Confusing, but I really would like to work on making the PC database a bit richer.  What do you guys think?

[nupoile]

....In short, when there are simple variations on media or appearance (such as the Baldur's Gate example) it would be a variation, but with the Chrome debacle since there are fundamental changes to the game itself they would be separate entry....

On this I think you are right, my only issue would be the practicality of it. Deciding were the point is between "simple variations" and "fundamental changes" on a PC game is tough. Some games we know, like your example. Current games that are being sold now or in the future won't be too hard to figure out. But would there be too much discrepancy with older games?

If you're like me, you don't play games so much that you would know all the differences between different variations from games made back in, say 1993. Even something like Command & Conquer, which is a well known game, may be hard to decide at what point the changes made the game go from variation to separate but related game.

Not that my vote counts too much, I would certainly help you with this topic were I could. I don't have a huge PC game collection by some standards here but I probably have 200ish PC games, and have less then 100 I've been able to put in the DB so far. In fact I have a stack of about 40 games right here, in jewel cases with manuals, that I am at a loss as to how to add.

[bombatomba]

On this I think you are right, my only issue would be the practicality of it. Deciding were the point is between "simple variations" and "fundamental changes" on a PC game is tough. So games we know, like your example. Current games that are being sold now or in the future won't be too hard to figure out. But would there be too much discrepancy with older games?

If you're like me, you don't play games so much that you would know all the differences between different variations from games made back in, say 1993. Even something like Command & Conquer, which is a well known game, may be hard to decide at what point the changes made the game go from variation to separate but related game.

Not that my vote counts too much, I would certainly help you with this topic were I could. I don't have a huge PC game collection by some standards here but I probably have 200ish PC games, and have less then 100 I've been able to put in the DB so far. In fact I have a stack of about 40 games right here, in jewel cases with manuals, that I am at a loss as to how to add.

Amen on that one, brother.  I think the only thing we can do is dive in and see what happens.  I'm sure the Lords of the Database will correct us rather than let us screw up their database.  Nonetheless, adding PC games is not going to be as cut-and-dry as console games.  We are going to have to do a ton of research and maybe even fire up some of them to get credits (which as you know can be extremely difficult).  While I do have a ton of Jewel case games, almost none of them are retail (i.e., they don't have a barcode on the back), so I know they came out of a "big box."  If I can get around to it tonight I'm going to start adding a few just to see, but that really depends on if I am going to watch this 1080P version of Night of the Living Dead I downloading from the Internet Archive (yay for PD).

[nupoile]

....and maybe even fire up some of them....

Do you mean actually play some games?!? Wow. You are taking this seriously. 

[bombatomba]

Do you mean actually play some games?!? Wow. You are taking this seriously. 

Well, not literally.  Maybe watch the video on YouTube or something...  ;P

Seriously, I am committed to this.  If I have to install Croc 2 or Deer Avenger 4: The Rednecks Strike Back, then by God, I'm going to do it!

[Shadow Kisuragi]

PC titles are a PITA to properly "document" due to the number of various releases. I have a lot of suggestions on how they'd currently fit into the database right, however.

Alternate Publisher:
This field should be used when rights transfer over from the original publisher to another publisher.

Packaging Variation:
This field should be used when the packaging differs from the original packaging, such as a Jewel Case version instead of a Cardboard Box version.

In most cases, if the title is released as a stand-alone release for the same platform, it's usually a Variation Tie-In. This includes the change between publishers and packaging.

FYI, the only limitation to a Variation Tie-In is console.

[Sirgin]

Also annoying about PC games is that there was a couple of years (2003-2005-ish?) where a lot of games were released in both CD and DVD versions. One version would have, say, 4 CD's for people with older machines and another version with everything else on a DVD.

There really are too many PC variations. I especially dislike the re-releasing of older, popular games by different publishers, usually ruining the box art by putting "Just4Gamerz" or something annoying on there. Then you get a whole "range" of games released under one of those budget labels. Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo do the same thing, with Player's Choice and the like, but atleast on consoles there's only one "Best Seller" range, where as on PC there are a million re-releases by different publishers with different box art.

It does make collecting for the PC less attractive, as there isn't a clearly defined amount of games when there are a dozen variations for each game.

[bombatomba]

PC titles are a PITA to properly "document" due to the number of various releases. I have a lot of suggestions on how they'd currently fit into the database right, however.

Alternate Publisher:
This field should be used when rights transfer over from the original publisher to another publisher.

Packaging Variation:
This field should be used when the packaging differs from the original packaging, such as a Jewel Case version instead of a Cardboard Box version.

In most cases, if the title is released as a stand-alone release for the same platform, it's usually a Variation Tie-In. This includes the change between publishers and packaging.

FYI, the only limitation to a Variation Tie-In is console.

I'm going to print this thread out and tape it to the side of my laptop screen.

There really are too many PC variations...
...It does make collecting for the PC less attractive, as there isn't a clearly defined amount of games when there are a dozen variations for each game.

Collecting for the PC is pretty much a fruitless endeavor, at least if you try to emulate how collecting is done on the consoles.  I think it's not just the variations (which is quite staggering) but the sheer amount of titles that I can run across while on The Hunt that keeps me looking.  I think I can safely say that in the years I've spent going to garage sales, auctions, flea markets, and thrift stores I've only run across duplicate titles no more than a dozen times.  Yikes, I'm getting goose bumps just thinking about it.

[techwizard]

it's also hard to get pc games that are playable, so many require a certain generation of computer and more modern ones have single use codes that stop you from playing most used games. and then there are sometimes incompatibility with software or hardware in your specific pc.

don't get me wrong i love playing games on pc, i think it's the best way to play a lot of genres, but it's just not an enjoyable thing to collect for, for most people.

[Shadow Kisuragi]

Since Sirgin mentioned it, there's also a Release Type for Media changes, such as CD -> DVD.

P.S: Xplosiv and its kin can burn. I'm all for budget releases, but stop trying to make it your own. At least make your packaging similar, instead of releasing 8 different versions of the same item with your fly-by-wire designs every 2 months.

[bombatomba]

it's also hard to get pc games that are playable, so many require a certain generation of computer and more modern ones have single use codes that stop you from playing most used games. and then there are sometimes incompatibility with software or hardware in your specific pc.

I've seen some games that try to limit the amount of times you can install (Fallout 3 did this) but it I don't think I've ever ran into a game with single-use codes.  Kind of scary, but then again most PC gamers like to get their hands dirty so I would never see that as a problem.  And to be honest, sometimes getting an older game to work on a modern platform is half the fun.

Shadow: The next round of submissions will be better.  I promise.

[techwizard]

most if not all valve games are one use